LiteSwitch: Lock's Quest with Jackie Kashian and Andy Ashcraft

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Lock in everyone because of time
for the old switcheroo where 

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we're talking gaming retro with 
Mike and J MO. 

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I'm Mike. 
And I'm J MO we're the often 

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imitated, never emulated retro 
gaming podcast that normally 

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dives deep into the Nintendo 
Switch Online Nintendo Classics 

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catalog. 
But on this extra special light 

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Switch episode, we are rerouting
our troops to explore a cult 

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classic from the days of DS with
THQ's real time strategy action 

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title Locks Quest, available now
on PlayStation, Xbox, Mobile and

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Steam. 
Mike, this is a bit of a 

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deviation from our normal 
mission statement, but having 

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spent a lot of time with this 
game recently, well deserving of

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today's spotlight. 
And I think you have some 

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special guests, one of which is 
no stranger to spotlights. 

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You want to introduce them. 
Yeah, so very glad to have 

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really one of my favorite 
comedians for the last 20 

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something years, Jackie Kasian. 
And and. 

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We also have her husband Andy, 
who worked on this game. 

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Ashcraft. 
Andy Ashcraft, how are you guys?

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We're great. 
Thank you. 

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Thank you for having us on. 
Thank you for being here. 

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So I I want to start with 
Jackie. 

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So for people who haven't 
checked her out, because I've 

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quoted her at various points on 
the past this of this podcast 

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for having great jokes about 
video games, but far more than 

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just video game content. 
Like I don't want to over praise

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that and make it seem like 
that's all you do because that 

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is not. 
Right, my dad keeps talking. 

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Yes, I have plenty of jokes 
about my dad. 

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Definitely a you and Jamo have 
that in common. 

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You. 
Have a slander about my dad, no.

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No, no, you have a lot of 
stories about him that is I, I 

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don't think but so aside from 
having like the Dork Forest 

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podcast since 2006. 
Yep. 

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No seasons, by the way. 
We just keep going. 

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And then eventually I get burned
out and I go, hey, guess who's 

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taking a week off? 
And then then we just free up. 

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Yeah. 
And of course, your most recent 

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special is altercation. 
I'm in the middle of an 

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inadvertent trilogy. 
It was my last album before this

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was going to be called 
Altercation, but then COVID 

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happened and we were all home 
for 16 months. 

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So when I finally did record it,
it had become Staycation. 

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Get it? 
Because my last name's vacation.

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We were all home. 
And so I'm down doing a trilogy 

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and this one's called 
Altercation because I want to 

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punch everyone in the nose and 
my last name's Vacation. 

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So we don't know what the next 
one's going to be called. 

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It could be vindication, could 
be abdication, could be if it's 

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all sex jokes, could be 
fornication, could be location, 

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location. 
We don't know. 

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We don't know. 
But I would say I was more 

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excited to see that you released
on Band Camp, your first album, 

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first album that I got from you,
which was Cake is Not My 

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Downfall, which I ordered from 
you a couple decades ago. 

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I did put that up there. 
Good for me. 

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Somebody just asked me about 
that and I said get over it. 

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And, and instead of saying go to
my band camp, somebody else 

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asked about that because that 
was the one that I just grabbed 

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the set in 1999 or 2001 or 
something. 

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And then Andy helped me with 
the, I think must have been 2002

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because you helped me with the 
art. 

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And then I burned it on my 
computer like we used to do back

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in 2001. 
And then I put stickers on 

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little CD discs. 
There were cake stickers because

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it's called cake. 
It's not my downfall. 

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I went to keep going and bought 
bought jewel cases. 

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I bought jewel cases that then 
got smashed every time I tried 

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to travel with them and I still 
have an entire. 

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If you, if anybody has a CD 
player, no in your heart, but 

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you can either get all five. 
You can get five of my CDs and 

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two of my DVDs. 
You would have to have a 

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different device for that. 
They're in my garage. 

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And if you don't have those 
devices, you could get a 

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mismatched set of coasters. 
Yeah, that's. 

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Hilarious when I'd ordered that,
it also came with a couple pins 

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that were very awkward to try to
explain to my mom what they said

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when I was trying to get see if 
she can find them in my stuff at

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my parents' house. 
What did they say? 

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Oh, was it the vagina T-shirt 
thing? 

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Yes, that's on the that's on the
The Bread album too. 

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I think that's. 
My closer. 

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I did most of the stuff from 
cake on bread because it was 

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recorded by professionals. 
Go ahead. 

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Is the pin an arrow that says 
that's where I keep my vagina? 

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With another arrow that says 
that's where I keep my it just 

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says that's where I keep my 
vagina with an arrow going to 

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the left and an arrow going 
down. 

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Because I, I refuse to do the 
T-shirt in the joke, I refuse to

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do the T-shirt. 
And then my dad was like, you 

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should make buttons and, and, 
and they should have your 

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website on them or no, Initially
he said you should throw 

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painters caps into the audience.
And I was like, remember 

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painters caps, You guys, I don't
know if you were alive in the 

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80s, but people used to wear 
painters caps. 

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It was a, it was a just wait, 
it'll come back any minute now. 

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That as a fashion moment. 
We should have our first piece 

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of merch piece and painters caps
Mike. 

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That'd be amazing. 
Wow, you guys could start the 

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the the retro trend of painters 
caps oh. 

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My God, I wonder if they're 
they're there. 

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Anyway, go ahead, orderable. 
I'm sure they are. 

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I'm sure they are. 
So from that I want wanted to 

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ask since on on that when you 
talk about video games, you talk

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a lot about Final Fantasy on the
Game Boy. 

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Right, that was the only video 
game joke I ever had was that 

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Final Fantasy Legends and I 
booked a private with who did 

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spore Andy. 
Well, it was. 

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
I had AI had a corporate a 

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Christmas party for Forexis and 
they wanted me to do that joke. 

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And I was like, that joke is for
people who don't play video 

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games and for people who just 
know that game and that's it. 

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People who make video games 
don't need the explanation, 

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which is the one of the funny 
parts, and then they don't need 

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the reference to the the other 
one. 

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They'll laugh politely. 
So I ate it for approximately 57

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minutes overlooking the 
Baltimore Orioles field. 

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So. 
Much It was their Christmas 

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party, right? 
Right. 

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And they were going to give me a
free copy of Spore and they 

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didn't. 
They did pay me, but they were 

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it was going to be this weird 
bonus. 

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And I was like, well, I don't 
want to play it anyway. 

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They made civilization, they 
made Spore, whatever. 

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So I. 
I was going to ask both what 

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where did you start with gaming?
Because I think you've talked 

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about both the handled stuff and
arcade. 

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So I was curious about where you
started and then now what? 

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Like when you do play stuff, 
what kind of stuff do you play? 

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Well, I started on the on the 
uprights and I took a class in 

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high school in 1981 called 
biking and bowling. 

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And I thought it was polo, 
right. 

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I thought it was going to be 
where you biked from the bowl, 

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from the bowl from the bike. 
But no, it was biked to the 

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bowling alley bowl bike back to 
school. 

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That's a that's a joke actually,
from cake that didn't make it to

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bread Anyway. 
So the, they had, they had 

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uprights, they had Galaga, they 
had Gorf and they had Tempest 

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and they, they had pole 
position. 

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And I needed to make money at 
that point because they were 

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quarters across quarters. 
I had a finite, my allowance I 

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believe was $5 a week. 
So I started selling candy bars.

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Anyway, the, and then I went to 
college. 

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I had the most money I'd ever 
had in my life. 

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I spent 75 bucks a week of my 
student loans on video games for

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the first five weeks until I 
heard about a guy who I had to 

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drop out of school because he 
spent all of his loans on video 

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games. 
And then I had to get it under 

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control. 
And then, so I never even owned 

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a, a Game Boy, I don't think 
until the 90s. 

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And I got the old grey brick and
the, and the Final Fantasy 

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legend was the game on that grey
brick. 

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And then I met this guy Andy 
Ashcraft and he worked for 

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PlayStation and he showed me APS
2 game that has to this day is 

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the silliest, weirdest game, 
which means that I don't know 

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all of them but my the remember 
stretch panic. 

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Oh yes, PS2. 
PS1. 

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PS1. 
But you played it on your PS2? 

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Yeah, Yeah, you got it for like 
$3 used. 

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Right, right, right. 
It might have been APS 2 game. 

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I can't you know now. 
I can't remember. 

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Stretch Panic was this weird 
Japanese game, a 3D action 

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platformer kind of game. 
And you played a little girl 

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with a scarf that was possessed 
by a demon. 

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And the scarf had a big hand on 
it. 

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And so I could reach out and 
grab things and, and it could 

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grab, it could grab anything in 
the world and it was all Polygon

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art. 
And it could stretch the 

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polygons back. 
And then you could let go and it

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would snap and do damage. 
That's the way you fought 

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things. 
You do. 

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You reach out, grab them and 
stretch them and. 

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And yeah. 
And tell them how? 

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Who did Who did she fight she? 
She would save her sister. 

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You tell she had to, she had to 
go into the world, into the 

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demon world, and there were 
these spinning circles and and 

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then there were these demon 
ladies with giant boobies. 

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I just saw them, I just googled 
it. 

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That's it. 
And you could push them off of 

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the giant spinning plates, but 
that didn't defeat them. 

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That did not kill them. 
That with their boobs would 

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flatten out, turn into 
helicopters, and they'd fly back

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up and land back on the spinning
thing. 

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So the way you had to defeat 
them is you had to run around 

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back, take your possessed scarf 
and pull their ponytails so 

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00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,800
often it defeated them. 
That's the. 

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Weirdest, weirdest game I've 
ever seen in my life. 

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It could be a really cool out of
context TikTok we make. 

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Just like she's not on acid you 
guys. 

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It was the PS2. 
It's a real, it's a real pig. 

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From Japan. 
So I I wanted to shout you out, 

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Jackie, for being a woman of 
your word. 

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I recently was listening to your
2017 special. 

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00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,120
I'm not the hero of this story. 
And and you made a joke about 

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being a white lady meat shield 
for everyone who was terrified 

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after the 2016 election. 
And, you know, recently, after 

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Minnesota has been under siege, 
but not in a fun locks quest 

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kind of way. 
You did a charity concert with 

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another comedian, Lori. 
Lori. 

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Yeah. 
And so I was just wondering if 

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you could speak to what that was
like, both as a comedian and as 

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a Minnesota native. 
Well, yeah, we're Minnesota 

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Comic and the The thing is, this
is when the 2016 I'm not the 

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hero. 
That's the first time I was ever

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00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,200
overtly political in any of my 
stand up and was because I was 

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scared and it was six weeks 
after the election. 

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00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,680
And so I kind of lost my tiny 
mind and I was like, you guys, 

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00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,840
we have to. 
And so white lady meat shield 

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inspired first a charity T-shirt
and pin that had it's it was a 

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picture essentially of June 
Cleaver. 

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00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:15,080
It was like a white lady, like a
caricature of a white lady with 

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00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,960
Pearl, with a Pearl necklace on.
And it said in Latin it was on a

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shield. 
And in Latin it said malice 

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00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,520
artibus impeterect, which means 
get in the way of bad behavior. 

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00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,920
And there was a T-shirt and a 
pin, both designed by Jenny Fine

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00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,840
of AJ Fine Originals. 
She's a fine artist. 

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00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,440
Yeah, really. 
She's done a lot of art for me 

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00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:41,120
and herself and other whatever. 
But all of that, the money from 

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00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,080
that above the cost of the 
shirts and stuff went to various

220
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,200
anti fascist and immigration 
help and food legal and all 

221
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,880
these things. 
We we ended up donating about 14

222
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,720
grand for that. 
And that was so to various 

223
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,440
different groups. 
And that was so successful 

224
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,080
because 14 grand isn't a lot if 
you have a lot of money. 

225
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,000
But if you don't have any money,
14 grand is a lot of money. 

226
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:10,760
Yeah, it's not nothing. 
So, so when Taco Navjob came 

227
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,360
back into power, I was like, I 
don't know what to do except for

228
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:21,880
more benefits. 
So I'll do so Lori Kilmartin and

229
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,480
I and Rivenford and a bunch of 
other comics, Ayo Rodriguez and 

230
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:34,360
and we just we donated our time 
Carmen Morales and to and this 

231
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,120
the Zoom shows. 
We do zoom shows. 

232
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,200
If you sign up for my e-mail 
list, which is harder to get on 

233
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,520
than to get off, you got to go 
to my website, you got to scroll

234
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,120
to the bottom, you got to fill 
it out. 

235
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,320
It's easy to get off because I 
send you an e-mail every two 

236
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,440
months and in every e-mail 
there's an unsubscribe button. 

237
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,400
No harm, no fall, knock yourself
out. 

238
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,280
It's been great having me. 
But if you're on the e-mail 

239
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,560
list, you'll get an announcement
when there's a zoom stand up 

240
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:00,160
show. 
And they're usually benefits 

241
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,040
for, for the same kind of thing 
for like legal help, food and 

242
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:10,320
and rent help for people who 
have to hide and, and then, and 

243
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,080
then when, when there's extra 
money. 

244
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,280
And there so far has not been. 
We try to do like abortion 

245
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,160
rights and just women's rights 
and voting rights and. 

246
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,800
These these. 
People. 

247
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,240
You remember liberty and justice
for all I remembered from my 

248
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,680
childhood. 
It's a little saying we had when

249
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,720
I was a kid. 
And so, yeah, so and and this. 

250
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,160
And at this time, I have a new 
benefit item. 

251
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,240
It's it's my new album. 
It's a download card. 

252
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,640
And it comes with an enameled 
Pete pin of a bumblebee. 

253
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,560
Because I, I say that I'm angry 
and I'm made of bees. 

254
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,360
And if you were to scratch me, 
bees would come out with a 

255
00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:54,640
possible thumbs that would punch
Nazis and the, the pins, all of 

256
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,400
it. 
It's a pin and a download card. 

257
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,520
You could get them at my shows. 
20 bucks, all the money. 

258
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:05,080
So far we've donated 6 grand to 
various different groups and and

259
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,640
then I have beanies union made 
beanies and T-shirts that say 

260
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,480
made a piece. 
All that money goes to me. 

261
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,520
That's mine, mine mine. 
I also have to pay by mortgage. 

262
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,840
So because I have a house, what?
I was saying. 

263
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:19,480
Andy had a house and then I 
married him. 

264
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,960
Yeah. 
The Zoom show's having fun 

265
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,160
because I've caught a couple of 
those, which I'm also counting 

266
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,040
as filling in because you had 
Margaret Cho on one of them. 

267
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,080
Yeah. 
I had gone to something thinking

268
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,600
I was going to see Margaret Cho 
tell jokes because a friend 

269
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:43,000
invited me years ago, like 15 
years ago to a burlesque show. 

270
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,360
But it also had comedians and it
was like, oh, cool. 

271
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,120
And it and Margaret Cho's listed
that would be cool to see her do

272
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,920
comedy. 
And then I saw her do a 

273
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,920
burlesque show where at the end 
she had like a a giant strap on 

274
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,960
and it was very much like, this 
isn't what I thought I was 

275
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:04,280
coming here to see. 
Right, yes, you should see the 

276
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,440
stand up and mime show that I 
do. 

277
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,000
I just only do mine. 
Weird. 

278
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,560
Don't do that for the podcast. 
That's a bad idea right now. 

279
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,720
I just, I just wanted to give 
you credit for putting your meat

280
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,640
shield where your mouth is and. 
Of course. 

281
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,880
And if I could, Speaking of 
meat, if I could talk to your 

282
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:31,480
naked friend who's very clothed 
on the zoom used to describe 

283
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,000
your. 
There's always money in the 

284
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,320
banana shirt. 
There's always money in the 

285
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:38,640
banana shirt, actually, Is 
there? 

286
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,280
Let me see, there is. 
Look at that, Look at that. 

287
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:43,600
I. 
Just pulled it out of the closet

288
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,200
and whenever it's just hanging 
in the closet, she will tuck 

289
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,720
some amount of money. 
There's a $5.00 bill in the 

290
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,800
banana shirt so that we can say 
there's money, money in the 

291
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,520
banana shirt. 
So we're about to dive deep into

292
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,520
Locke's quest for the DS. 
But before we get to it though, 

293
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,680
I was very excited to go through
your gaming credits as a 

294
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:11,040
developer and you worked on one 
of the last Sega released games 

295
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,560
for the Dreamcast in North 
America. 

296
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,520
And Dreamcast is so beloved to 
my heart. 

297
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:20,560
Flagen brothers episode 1. 
Yes, beautiful game, really cool

298
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:24,880
emotion engine that was really 
groundbreaking for the time and 

299
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,960
I remember reading about this I.
Haven't seen anything. 

300
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,440
I haven't seen anything like it 
since honestly. 

301
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,760
Yeah, yeah. 
And like I remember because you,

302
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,200
it had been a development for 
the entire lifespan of the 

303
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,080
Dreamcast. 
So there was this kind of 

304
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:38,560
sadness. 
That was only one year. 

305
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,600
Right, It is true, but you know,
there was a sadness to that game

306
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,240
for a minute amongst the Sega 
fans because they're like, well,

307
00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,000
the Dreamcast, we all know it's 
really good, but they just are 

308
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,960
not marketing this thing. 
It is not going to live and 

309
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,040
we're never going to see this 
game. 

310
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,440
And so then to have it be 1 of 
the, I mean, I vividly remember 

311
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,440
going to Best Buy and being 
like, I'm getting flaking 

312
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,920
brothers and you know, it's an 
episode. 

313
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,000
You're 1. 
Of you're one of the a very few 

314
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,000
people who remember that game at
all. 

315
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,480
So yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm 
pleased to meet you. 

316
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,240
There are dozens of us bakers. 
Dozens of you. 

317
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,080
But so I've been wondering this 
since I was a kid. 

318
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,760
You know, we never got to see 
Episode 2, right? 

319
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,160
Did you guys? 
So, So what was your involvement

320
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,960
with that game specifically? 
And do you recall what the 

321
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,360
sequel would have been? 
Because I remember you were 

322
00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:32,200
going to be able to take your 
data from your character and 

323
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,160
carry it from game to game and 
have a kind of a persistent 

324
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,320
relationship with your brother 
Mogul. 

325
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,920
So can you give me any tidbits 
are behind the scenes? 

326
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,680
So a lot of that was marketing 
talk. 

327
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,200
Never meet your heroes, OK? 
Yeah, yeah, let me. 

328
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,080
Do you remember that there was 
this unlock, if you played it 

329
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,720
every month, you could unlock a 
special thing every month 

330
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,440
because it was one of these 
first, the Dreamcast was the 

331
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,440
first, you know, a device that 
connected, had Internet 

332
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,720
connectivity, the first of the, 
of the consoles who had Internet

333
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,880
connectivity. 
And they were, and they were, 

334
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,680
they really wanted, they really 
pressed, they really wanted to 

335
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,640
like show that off. 
And, and of course, we are in 

336
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,280
the middle of development and 
they're like, what can we do? 

337
00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,160
What can we do? 
So we, we created, we went back 

338
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,960
to our catalog of sort of 
discarded ideas and put together

339
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,680
12 things, usually little jokey 
things that you could turn on or

340
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,640
off depending on what month it 
was. 

341
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,080
And so like if in May, for 
example, Moigel, who was the big

342
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:48,600
goofy brother, had like a, a, a,
a 1950s dress. 

343
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,400
He dressed like his mom. 
And so it. 

344
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,040
Was Mother's Day, so it was sort
of a Mother's Day theme and he 

345
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,960
had a little little hat with a 
flower and A and the and the 

346
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:02,320
dress, print, print dress and 
and then, you know, and then 

347
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,680
June was something else and 
then, you know, there was a 

348
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,440
Turkey costume I think for, for,
for November. 

349
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,800
There was a this is goofy, 
goofy, weird things, little 

350
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,400
things that we could throw in 
very easily because because 

351
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,080
because again, this was an like.
The Dreamcast was, this was 

352
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,760
1999. 
It was meant to, it was meant to

353
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,320
be a, a launch title for the 
Dreamcast. 

354
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,360
So it was meant to release in 
September 9th, 1999. 

355
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:37,200
But I kept having my programmers
stolen away to go work on on on 

356
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,480
sports games. 
Yeah, that that that's where the

357
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,160
money was. 
Yeah, yeah. 

358
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,640
Well, yeah, exactly. 
I, I, I, I didn't begrudge them 

359
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,480
that. 
Because like, if you don't, if 

360
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,760
you don't miss your, your launch
date for a, a football title or 

361
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,040
a, a basketball title or a 
baseball title, you know, 

362
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,120
you're, you're just, you're just
not going to sell anything this 

363
00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:58,400
that year. 
Yeah. 

364
00:20:58,440 --> 00:20:59,200
Are you? 
Yeah. 

365
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:05,120
Are you even in game design? 
So I understood like when they 

366
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,960
like, Oh my gosh, we need to 
have these programmers. 

367
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,960
And remember, we were a very 
small team anyways. 

368
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:13,640
There was only 12 of us. 
And so two of the programmers 

369
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,920
would regularly get pulled off 
to go work on on sports games. 

370
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,120
We've heard that happens a lot 
in game development as we've 

371
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:22,040
been researching, you know, 
these older games. 

372
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,320
But so it's so funny because 
like I remember and I and I 

373
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,760
think these unlocks would happen
automatically because I remember

374
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,360
he's like, why is Moigo in a moo
moo? 

375
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,320
But now I know it's because it 
was Mother's Day and. 

376
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:34,480
It's Mother's Day, right? 
Right. 

377
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,680
For those who haven't seen it, 
it's essentially if Looney Tunes

378
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,800
made Of Mice and Men and you 
play as Lenny or you play as 

379
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,160
George, excuse me, and Moigo is 
your Lenny and you kind of 

380
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,960
manage him. 
But it's so so episode 2 that. 

381
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,360
Is I have bad news about how 
that story ends? 

382
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,760
There was this dark undercurrent
to the game and we're going to 

383
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,800
get to that with locks quest 
because oh Andy, there is a dark

384
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,680
undertone to locks quest, but 
we'll get to that later. 

385
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:04,440
You're sick, man. 
And. 

386
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,360
We worked on it going back to 
going back to flogging Brothers,

387
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:13,040
though I, I was lead designer 
for, for a long period of time, 

388
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,200
the only designer and also for a
long period of time the 

389
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,600
producer. 
So I was, I was, I was wearing 

390
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,400
very many hats. 
Being in both producer and 

391
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,800
designer, it turns out, will 
make you crazy because there's 

392
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,360
one side of your brain. 
It's like, oh, it'd be really 

393
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:30,240
cool if we could do this. 
And the other part of your brain

394
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,320
is like, we can't afford that. 
And it's just better if you have

395
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,480
two people to actually argue 
those points, right? 

396
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,120
Otherwise you. 
Would have split personality. 

397
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,760
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 
But I'm really proud of that 

398
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,440
game. 
The the we spent a lot of time 

399
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,880
getting the feel of that AI 
correct. 

400
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,400
And it's a needs based AI. 
So Muygle actually has needs. 

401
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:03,080
He has hunger and he has, he has
a social need and he has he gets

402
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:04,880
tired. 
So he had his, he has a sleep 

403
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:10,040
need and and he has an 
entertainment need. 

404
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,360
So he has these different needs 
and they're, and they're slowly 

405
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,240
ticking down so long as they're 
not being addressed. 

406
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,560
And then you as your, as, as his
smart little brother can address

407
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,600
them. 
Help him help him address those 

408
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,440
needs and they will get bumped 
up and they need to be more, 

409
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,960
more available to do other 
things, which is what you need 

410
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,360
him for. 
You need him to play these other

411
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:33,680
little mini games and do things 
with them in order to progress 

412
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,960
the story along. 
Yeah, but you. 

413
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,640
But you had to abuse him to 
solve some puzzles. 

414
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,480
Like you had to make him madly. 
Yeah, that's. 

415
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:46,360
So. 
Mean like it's like he, he it's 

416
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,560
it's kind of implied that he 
he's at least he's he's not the 

417
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,760
he's he's slow, whatever, 
whatever you want that to mean, 

418
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,360
right. 
And and so you have to like wail

419
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,000
on a house like Andy. 
Sometimes sometimes you just got

420
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,520
to go up and punch him in the 
and then you cry and or get. 

421
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,040
It was 1999, but there was still
hitting in 90. 9 We're still 

422
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,920
hitting. 
Yeah, there was still hitting 

423
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,040
back then. 
We don't hit anymore. 

424
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,280
But I just, I, I just remember 
though, because, you know, 

425
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,680
Jackie refers you as art guy in 
her stand up specials. 

426
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,720
But I just remember just taking 
time and just running around the

427
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,440
junkyard and appreciating LEGO's
run animation. 

428
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,800
It is so just enjoyable to look 
at. 

429
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,160
So big fan. 
So real quick though, episode 2,

430
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,360
do you remember what it was 
going to be as far as story 

431
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,440
goes? 
There was no plans for an. 

432
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:33,880
Episode Oh, that's all marketing
talk. 

433
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,040
Well, you heard it here first, 
you guys. 

434
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:38,080
Blake and Brothers Episode 2 
never. 

435
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,000
Really. 
Let me tell you. 

436
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,240
Let me also tell you, let me go 
back to the story about the 

437
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,560
monthly things. 
Oh yes, the, the, the, what it 

438
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,840
connected to in the Internet was
literally just a date stamp. 

439
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:52,520
Everything was on the disk. 
Yes. 

440
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,440
And it and the, and it was kind 
of given to people in 2017, 

441
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:57,640
right? 
The ability to access it. 

442
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,640
Yeah, yeah. 
Because I think that the the 

443
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:06,120
website was going to go down and
so it was just a web page with 

444
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,760
the date with a date stamp on it
and that's all it was. 

445
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,000
And so, yeah, they just made it 
so that all the dates are on 

446
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,840
that, what I'm saying. 
They didn't know the power of 

447
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,080
the Internet in 19. 90 They 
didn't, but you could just 

448
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,040
change the date in your in your 
Dreamcast to get access to it. 

449
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,080
I remember being in college and 
my my seaman died when I was 

450
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,200
really busy in finals week. 
And I was devastated. 

451
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,200
And Leonard Nimoy was so 
disappointed in it. 

452
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,200
Yeah, Yeah. 
And Leonard Nimoy says I regret 

453
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,200
to it. 
Those of you don't know, it's 

454
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,440
this weird pet SIM about fish 
with faces hosted narrated by 

455
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,200
Leonard Nimoy. 
Like, it's incredible. 

456
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,840
But I remember being. 
I don't think, I don't think 

457
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,280
I've subjected Jackie to this. 
Oh, I don't. 

458
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,800
Know what that? 
Is Oh yeah, sounds weird. 

459
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,880
That's it's, it's going to be 
your weekend. 

460
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,600
Good luck with that. 
But I remember where Andy 

461
00:25:53,600 --> 00:26:01,880
subjects Jackie to C man. 
C man hit that hard A but I 

462
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,400
remember thinking like, wait a 
minute, no way this is going to 

463
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,600
work right? 
And I went into the game system 

464
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,880
and turned the clock back. 
C man is alive again. 

465
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,360
And it felt like time travel. 
But Speaking of time travel that

466
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,280
we have a retro game to cover. 
Mike, you ready? 

467
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,760
No, no. 
There's a question I wanted to 

468
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,640
ask Andy, since you you were the
first person who's actually 

469
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,840
worked on games that we've then 
had on. 

470
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,440
Yeah, our first dev interview. 
No, I, I am your. 

471
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,080
I'm your first game dev guest. 
Yes, we've had a lot of people 

472
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,960
who are fans on the game side, 
but not on the other side of how

473
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,880
this works. 
So I want, I did want to ask, 

474
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:48,880
since I think game game 
developer is a very fuzzy term 

475
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,120
to people who don't do it, what,
what does it actually entail in 

476
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:58,160
terms of for you, what part of 
that is it that you're doing? 

477
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,440
Right. 
So it isn't sort of, it's an 

478
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,560
umbrella term that, that that 
basically covers everybody that 

479
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,880
works in the in the industry. 
But more specifically, if you 

480
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,160
talk about developers, you're 
usually talking about actually 

481
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:14,320
code writers, which is not me. 
I am a, I'm a game designer and 

482
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,920
producer. 
I don't consider myself a game 

483
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:22,440
developer in the video game 
sense because I don't write 

484
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,880
code. 
I mean, I can a little bit and I

485
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,920
can, I can, I can mess around 
and, and in scripting languages.

486
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,320
And, you know, in the old days 
of, of, of video game design, 

487
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,040
every game came with its own 
bespoke scripting language to 

488
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,400
make stuff in. 
And so you had to learn all 

489
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,160
these things that had, that 
always had no documentation and 

490
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:46,680
nobody had any time to teach 
you. 

491
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:53,280
So Yep, Yep. 
You make tools, you know that, 

492
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,080
you know the drill. 
And so, yeah, I don't, I don't 

493
00:27:58,080 --> 00:27:59,440
consider myself a game 
developer. 

494
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,160
I can consider myself a game 
designer. 

495
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,960
On Fliggin Brothers, I was also 
producer, which meant that I was

496
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,880
also in charge of schedules and 
budgets. 

497
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,520
So not only the creative lead, 
but also the scheduling and 

498
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,200
budgeting lead. 
Why do I feel like that's 

499
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,320
harder? 
It's it's a different gig. 

500
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,680
Some people really love it, but 
it's a different gig. 

501
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,760
Mike does all our scheduling and
I'm so grateful to him. 

502
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,840
Is that I'm the art guy, I guess
I do the cover art. 

503
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,400
So yeah, that's amazing. 
But so you are more the 

504
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,960
character development 
aesthetics. 

505
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:34,640
Yeah. 
Storyboarding. 

506
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,720
And the user experience, like I,
I, I, I, my, my job is to think 

507
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,960
about like the whole, the whole 
thing. 

508
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,720
How does the player experience 
this thing and then guide all 

509
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,880
the creative app elements that 
go into that. 

510
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,480
And I, and I've always believed 
that a game experience starts 

511
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,480
when you first hear about the 
game and then continues through 

512
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,720
the marketing and whatever. 
And then there's finally the 

513
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,360
release of the game. 
Maybe somebody buys the game, 

514
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,560
downloads the game now and then 
plays the game. 

515
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,760
And now, now you're actually in 
the heart of the, the 

516
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,760
experience, right? 
And then you finish the game and

517
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,720
then you did you the game, the 
game experience continues while 

518
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,640
you talk about the game with 
your friends or on these 

519
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,520
podcasts or whatever. 
And so until finally, you know, 

520
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,040
that's that the long tail of the
game experience dries up. 

521
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,480
But I, I feel like game 
designers, the creative leads of

522
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,880
the of the game, need to be 
thinking about that whole arc. 

523
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,120
So this is sort of like a game 
ends twice, once in the credits 

524
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,240
roll and with the second time 
when the last person speaks its 

525
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,240
name. 
That's right, that's right. 

526
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,800
It's a very what was that, 
Disney? 

527
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,960
The Mexican Coco. 
Coco. 

528
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,280
It's kind of like Coco. 
Yeah. 

529
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:53,680
The game is alive in this sort 
of Coco world of a right. 

530
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,440
So Lox Quest is actually, but 
Lox Quest is alive and well 

531
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,920
because you can actually 
download it right now, which is 

532
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:01,240
amazing. 
Yeah. 

533
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,320
Am I ready to get into it then? 
Yes, please. 

534
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,400
All right, so guys, these clocks
are going to clean themselves. 

535
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,880
Let's snap into the Kingdom of 
Antonia with Locks Quest for the

536
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:17,920
Nintendo DS released in 2008. 
As described on the back of the 

537
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,200
box, which I'm very excited to 
actually be holding, it says 

538
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,920
here build and battle in the 
ultimate construction combat 

539
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,400
game. 
Create and customize your own 

540
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,320
fortress with weapons and traps 
to help Locke defend his Kingdom

541
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,440
from evil Lord Agony and his 
clockwork invaders. 

542
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,560
Build towers, weapons, traps, 
and more. 

543
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,240
Defend your creations from 
invaders and explore the Kingdom

544
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,400
for new missions. 
So, Jackie, would you mind for 

545
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,400
our audio listeners describing 
the kind of cover art of Locke's

546
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,720
Quest and giving us your 
thoughts on it? 

547
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,800
Yes, I that's a perfect thing 
for me to do. 

548
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,800
I'm not going to lie to you. 
So Lock's quest, it's got what 

549
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,840
do I assume is our our. 
I never knew if his name was 

550
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,760
Lock or. 
Yeah, his name's Lock, right? 

551
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,960
Yeah. 
He's got a giant wrench and he 

552
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,080
is. 
He looks like he's been put 

553
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,360
together by. 
Remember those, the sticks, that

554
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:10,800
all. 
Then you could build a dude. 

555
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,200
Yeah, he looks like he's he's 
built up connects on his feet 

556
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,000
and but it's just he's his shins
He's got he's got chicken legs, 

557
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,480
I guess is what I'm saying. 
He is surrounded by a Viking 

558
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,280
robotted, helmeted dudes, dudes 
and and then they look like 

559
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,560
turrets behind him. 
And because it's a tower defense

560
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,600
game, it's got towers and 
turrets and there's going to be 

561
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,760
bang bangs and but there's gears
that need to be adjusted 

562
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,600
obviously because. 
He's got a wrench, big old 

563
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,840
wrench. 
I, I the whole game, I'm like, I

564
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,360
can't wait to unlock that 
freaking wrench. 

565
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,200
And things would be sweet. 
Hey, wait a minute, Andy. 

566
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,800
Like your tool will tease me. 
No, no. 

567
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,800
He has with the whole game. 
Well in the DS1 when he attacks 

568
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,280
he just kind of like swings his 
first. 

569
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,400
You never actually see it. 
But but you're right though. 

570
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,720
I mean he's clearly using it 
because you're an arcaneer. 

571
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Great term by the way, just 
creating architecture out of 

572
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,520
absolutely nothing. 
I before we get too deep into 

573
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,280
the, I want to make sure you 
understand. 

574
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:17,040
I worked at this point. 
I worked at THQ as I forget what

575
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,280
was my title at the time, but it
was basically I would get 

576
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,440
assigned with a producer, thank 
God, because it's very important

577
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,120
to split these two. 
And, and I would go and, and 

578
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640
they would assign me to a game 
that they've signed from a third

579
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,760
party developer. 
So in this case, it was Fifth 

580
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,200
Cell and, and so I would go and 
I'd represent the publisher to 

581
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:42,480
this and I, I'd done this kind 
of work for, for PlayStation for

582
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:49,360
the prior seven years. 
And so I would go and basically 

583
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,200
just make sure that all of the 
creative things were aligning 

584
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,760
the way that they needed to 
align. 

585
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,240
So these ideas and this game did
not come from my brain. 

586
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:04,680
Jeremiah Slaka and his and his 
partner Joe Tringali are the, 

587
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,800
are the, the, the brains behind 
this thing and the, and the 

588
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,560
creative forces behind this, 
this game. 

589
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,320
And I want to make sure that 
they get the full credit for 

590
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,040
and. 
And and Andy doesn't try to 

591
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,760
coattail that. 
He's like, I did the thing I 

592
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,000
did. 
That's just yes. 

593
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,960
Right, right, right. 
I mean, yeah. 

594
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,080
And, and honestly, they're an 
amazing developer to work with. 

595
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:30,720
And so, you know, I was sending 
them feedback on story and, you 

596
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,280
know, I was playing the levels 
and sending them feedback on on 

597
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,280
levels and, and little bits and 
pieces. 

598
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,680
But, but literally I was just 
basically just play testing this

599
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:39,520
game. 
Yeah. 

600
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,600
So. 
And you know, and making sure 

601
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,160
that it it, it was, you know, it
was hitting all of the creative 

602
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,040
beats and, and, and then 
representing it to the, to the 

603
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,760
rest of the, the publisher 
organization so that the 

604
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,160
advertising and all that lined 
up. 

605
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,880
So were you working with them 
for a lot of the like, how early

606
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,680
in their development were they 
when they started this like this

607
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,239
wasn't like. 
They had they had AI feel like, 

608
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:15,719
I think they had a demo and and 
those they had a they had a demo

609
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,239
of, you know, running around in 
the 3D World and they had a demo

610
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,000
of of the creeps, the the robot,
the at that point, I don't even 

611
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,440
think that the the designs were 
done completely. 

612
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,159
So it was just some generic 
things that moved around and, 

613
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,080
and you were and, and the 
ability to run around between 

614
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,719
the towers. 
So it's like the pitch was so 

615
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,080
easy. 
It's a tower defense game with 

616
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,679
with a single player character 
that runs around and fixes 

617
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,360
builds and fixes towers. 
Yeah. 

618
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:53,560
And then so so that they find, 
add and add to that a like a a 

619
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:59,920
JRPG style storyline. 
What's the J in that Japanese? 

620
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,800
Oh, thank you. 
It it it reminds me of a Strauss

621
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,240
family favorite game. 
I'm curious if you ever played 

622
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,480
an old 3D O Sega Saturn game 
called the Horde? 

623
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,160
No, that's amazing. 
Yeah, You actually play as Kirk 

624
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,200
Cameron. 
It's not showing up very well on

625
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,840
the camera right now. 
There he is. 

626
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,480
Kirk Cameron from Growing Pains,
right, is the main character. 

627
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,600
But it was similar in that, you 
know, you would have the the 

628
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,160
build phase where you put up 
your towers and defenses, then 

629
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,440
you ran around. 
It didn't run nearly as well as 

630
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,880
locks quest runs. 
Yeah, I don't know that. 

631
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,880
I don't know that those two, 
Jeremiah and Joe, had ever 

632
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,400
played the Horde. 
Yeah, it's never. 

633
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,480
We never or seen the movie. 
It never came up. 

634
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,960
No, it's not a movie. 
It's it's Kirk Cameron is in the

635
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,440
game. 
This is back in the day when you

636
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,400
would have like full motion 
video cutscenes on the Command 

637
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,080
and Conquer. 
Yeah. 

638
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,560
It's it's a wild, it's a wild 
title that, you know, I was very

639
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,240
happy to be reminded of in 
playing this game that you 

640
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:00,480
worked on. 
Yeah. 

641
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,440
So do you remember because you 
said you were kind of making 

642
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,320
sure like the story, so I can be
mad at you about the story, 

643
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,080
right? 
Because this story broke my 

644
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,400
heart. 
Well, you guys can bond on it. 

645
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:18,240
Yeah, we can bond about it. 
Yeah, because, yeah, Jeremiah or

646
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,800
Joe was really the one in charge
of the story. 

647
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,120
He was the between the two of 
them. 

648
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,040
He was the writer and Jeremiah 
was the was the gamer guy more 

649
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,920
more on on that on that side. 
So, but, but Joe was really 

650
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,840
focused on story and, and it was
really, it was really important 

651
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,280
for him to like, like tell a 
story that dug deep and, and, 

652
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:45,040
and make you feel right. 
Right I I played Drawn to Life, 

653
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:46,880
which was their other. 
Game, that was the other one, 

654
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,640
right? 
Yeah. 

655
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:53,200
In which in which Scott Rogers, 
friend of the show, yeah, was 

656
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,240
the creative manager. 
That was the that was my title, 

657
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:57,640
Creative Manager. 
Oh, there you go. 

658
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,320
Yeah, turn off the virtual 
background so you guys can see 

659
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,640
the visual aids a little bit 
better. 

660
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,520
Yeah, so, so this, so on the 
cover it, it talks about it, you

661
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,640
know, from the creators of Drawn
to Life and Jackie, did you know

662
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,320
that this game is arguably in 
the Drawn to Life universe? 

663
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,360
Oh no. 
Oh my gosh, what a weird. 

664
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,040
Yeah, arguably it could be. 
Well, because Mike from Drawn to

665
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,240
Life is in Antonia and he has 
this joke about vacationing in a

666
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:27,200
place with no Wi-Fi and he made 
a huge mistake. 

667
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,600
This is only after you've beaten
the game, but it's really it's 

668
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,960
really cute though, because in 
Drawn to Life he's the only 

669
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,480
human. 
And so in Locks quest he's a 

670
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,320
Raposa. 
He's like a little cat creature.

671
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,760
And so that's right, kind of a 
little subversion. 

672
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,200
You're reminding me about all 
kinds of stuff in this game 

673
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,360
because I haven't actually 
thought about this game in 10 

674
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,040
years. 
Really. 

675
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,120
Yeah. 
That's amazing. 

676
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,360
After you beat the game, there's
this little hidden area called 

677
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,040
the Hall of Heroes, and in fact,
Mike from Down to Life will give

678
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,040
you the little thing you need to
know to where to go on the map 

679
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,080
to find the room full of 
developers. 

680
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,400
Mike, you remember Zombies Ate 
My Neighbors, how we talked 

681
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,360
about that dev dev room at the 
end. 

682
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,360
Very much that vibe. 
So there's all kinds of cute 

683
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:09,960
things. 
I'm just wondering, Andy, since 

684
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,520
you did work on the game, if you
get any of these references. 

685
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,440
There's someone in the credits 
that's kids with keyboard, which

686
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,040
seems to be an office pet, like 
a dog or something. 

687
00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:22,960
This this was like 3 decades ago
at this point, yeah. 

688
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:27,960
And, and honestly, it might have
been, it was, it may have been a

689
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,480
kind of a more of an in joke for
Joe and Jeremiah. 

690
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,520
Right. 
Yeah, 'cause they were, they 

691
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,840
were, they were a really 
interesting pair. 

692
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,160
They were, they were like they 
were like 23 when they, when 

693
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,240
they were making this game. 
They were like they were really 

694
00:38:45,240 --> 00:38:49,440
young and they're really smart 
and they put together this 

695
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,760
really, really great team and 
we're running this game company 

696
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,440
and design like they were they 
were living the the life kind of

697
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,920
like you would expect, like 
everybody that everybody who 

698
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,240
thinks about what game design 
and like should be, they were 

699
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:07,840
actually having that life and it
was kind of amazing to just to 

700
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,800
watch them, right. 
Yeah, it felt really cool. 

701
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,760
Yeah. 
And so in that dev room, there's

702
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,560
a it's all very jokey. 
Like you talk to different 

703
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,680
characters and one says, hey, 
how did you find this secret 

704
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:22,800
room? 
Did you use the Internet? 

705
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,360
Did you cheat? 
And if you say yes, he goes, oh,

706
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,760
thanks for being honest. 
If you say no, he goes liar and 

707
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:34,480
kills you. 
So genuinely funny and like, you

708
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,640
know, and then there's a 
character who's like, you know, 

709
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,720
the villain of the story and he 
goes like, you know, I'm 

710
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:42,000
secretly the only good person in
this whole plot line. 

711
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:46,520
Like it's very 4th wall breaky. 
But one of the Knights says, 

712
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:54,360
hey, here's your secret 
redemption code 5C0O73RPWN57473R

713
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,000
or I don't know. 
Does this does it flip on Zoom? 

714
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:57,920
It does, doesn't it? 
No. 

715
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,720
No, no, no, no. 
We can see it. 

716
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,720
So it says in leet speak it says
Scooter pones tater. 

717
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,960
Oh, so it does. 
Yeah. 

718
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,120
Any any anything on that you 
know? 

719
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,200
Who tater might be? 
Who's Tater? 

720
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,120
Scooter. 
Who's it's? 

721
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,760
It's got to be. 
It's got to be people on their 

722
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,920
team. 
Yeah, it's just got to be. 

723
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,400
Honestly, we, we, yeah, we, we 
programmer. 

724
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,120
Ball busting, right? 
Love little jokes like that. 

725
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,600
My last question about behind 
the scenes stuff is that in that

726
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,760
area you can find graves of the 
things you guys had to scrap. 

727
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,800
Yeah, I'm making this game so 
you can find I, I Wi-Fi mode, I 

728
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,000
assume would have been just a 
way to play the multiplayer 

729
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,760
online. 
And you guys had to just scrap 

730
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,000
that and go straight to just 
Bluetooth multiplayer against 

731
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,000
other DS who's also in the room.
But city build mode and vehicle 

732
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,080
mode didn't make it into the 
final game. 

733
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,600
Any memory of what that would 
have been? 

734
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,840
I don't remember city build 
mode, but I, I vaguely remember 

735
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:09,560
the, the, the, the vehicle mode 
as just we, we couldn't get the 

736
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,800
I, I, if I remember correctly, 
the, the controls just never 

737
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,920
quite worked. 
Like the, the, the scale of 

738
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,000
running around on foot and the 
scale that you would expect from

739
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,040
having a vehicle. 
We're just too different. 

740
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,480
And so it was just never quite 
worked. 

741
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,840
But it was basically just that 
it was, it was like you would 

742
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,520
have a vehicle that you could 
fix and upgrade and do and do 

743
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,040
cool stuff to. 
And then you can move around 

744
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:42,160
either that map or a bigger map 
in the in this vehicle and have 

745
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,240
that kind and go from place to 
place that way and get there 

746
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:48,720
quicker. 
But yeah, it just didn't quite 

747
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:52,120
scale right. 
And so it it it created more 

748
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,960
problems than it solved. 
You know a lot of ideas too. 

749
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,880
Well, I remember when we first 
started going out, you would 

750
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,160
tell me about games you were 
working on in general. 

751
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,640
And then as we live together, it
was more specific, but you, you 

752
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,200
would work on these games for 
like a year, year and a half. 

753
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,520
And then they would be 
cancelled. 

754
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,320
Like a movie that never got 
picked up, you know, or a show 

755
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,960
that that was in production that
they bought the script and 

756
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,840
they're going to make the TV 
show. 

757
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,280
They're going to make the movie.
They're going to do it. 

758
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,280
They're going to do it. 
And Nah, we've, we've changed 

759
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,200
leaders and this leader no 
longer wants to make that. 

760
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,160
But do you remember that? 
Weird. 

761
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,000
I don't know what it was. 
Axle of Evil, maybe? 

762
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:36,160
Oh yes, was it? 
Driving game or something? 

763
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,560
Yeah, there it was. 
It was going to be a spin. 

764
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:46,680
This was back when I worked at 
at PlayStation and there was a 

765
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:52,640
talk of making a spin off game 
from the Twisted Metal 

766
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,000
franchise. 
Called. 

767
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:56,720
Oh yeah, actually, it's going to
be. 

768
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,160
A Yeah, yeah yeah was. 
It going to be called was it a 

769
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,800
versus? 
I, I don't remember exactly what

770
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,720
it it was at that point, just, 
and I'd like it was just 

771
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:10,840
somebody's like, like, like 
idea, right? 

772
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,920
But yeah, you're just. 
You're just going to play Axel 

773
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,000
and it was going to be called 
Axel of Evil. 

774
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,280
Axel was the character who who 
was strapped in and had the 

775
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,920
wheels on either on either hand.
Oh God. 

776
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,160
So he really, he was holding the
whole car the the vehicle 

777
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,880
together, which was really just 
two giant wheels with him 

778
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:34,440
strapped in between them. 
The. 

779
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,480
Guy himself, yeah, kind of kind 
of a he was the go Kart. 

780
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,280
Right, right. 
But the game that I worked on in

781
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,920
that series that that did get 
cancelled was, and rightly so. 

782
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,360
We realized that like 
conceptually it was just like 

783
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:55,720
what it was. 
So there was a, a PlayStation 

784
00:43:55,720 --> 00:44:00,320
one game called Twisted Metal 
small Brawl, which was the 

785
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,840
Twisted Metal cars as, as RC 
racers. 

786
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:10,920
And so the idea was that you 
were kids driving these RC, RC 

787
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,760
racers or RC cars around and all
the, the environment's really 

788
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,280
big and, and you, but you're 
still doing the same kind of 

789
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:18,600
thing. 
You're still, you know, driving 

790
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,840
around and blowing each other 
up, crashing and doing all that 

791
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,520
kind of stuff. 
One of the concept artists 

792
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:30,520
working there, she had done 
these amazing illustrations of 

793
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,000
the characters of the, of, of 
those of the drivers and the 

794
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,840
twist metal drivers as like 12 
year olds. 

795
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,560
And they were so cool that we 
wanted to make a game with them.

796
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,560
And so we were, we were, we 
worked for probably about a year

797
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,560
on a game which was them running
around in an abandoned theme 

798
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,360
park shooting paintball guns at 
each other. 

799
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,520
OK. 
Why? 

800
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,640
Why not? 
I I want to play that. 

801
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:01,760
Why? 
Why can't I play that? 

802
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:03,880
Why, why is it good? 
Why is it good? 

803
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,040
This was cancelled. 
I I was expecting like, oh, the 

804
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,400
kids kill each other. 
I'm like, OK, I get. 

805
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,080
Isn't that because it's just kid
violence? 

806
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,240
Yeah, yeah. 
Because of kid, kid violence and

807
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:12,360
all that. 
Oh. 

808
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,840
Just encourage. 
Oh, just encourage. 

809
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,760
But what about right but. 
But no, but the, the point, the 

810
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,280
the thing was like paintball is 
already a simulation of running 

811
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,920
around and shooting each other 
with guns. 

812
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,480
And so it's really what we were 
making was a simulation, a video

813
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,040
game simulation of a thing that 
was already being simulated. 

814
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,600
Like it was a 2 step simulation.
We're like, what? 

815
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,800
Like, if we're going to make a 
shooter, why don't we make a 

816
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,360
shooter that just shoots? 
Right. 

817
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,360
Then you don't get to use the 
awesome art of them as children,

818
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:43,160
right? 
What? 

819
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,120
What was the one where somebody 
had made the art and you wanted 

820
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:51,000
to do like a Mortal Kombat 
versus a fighter thing with the 

821
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:58,040
leaders, all dictators? 
So yes, so there was this 

822
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,920
Japanese developer, I'm going to
try to remember the name, but 

823
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:02,880
I'm probably not going to be 
able to. 

824
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,320
But they had made the boxing 
like the fairly famous boxing 

825
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,720
game on on PlayStation 2. 
And so they had this really 

826
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:13,680
great boxing engine and we 
pitched to them and they liked 

827
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,680
the idea and, and Sony was on 
board with this idea for a 

828
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,080
minute, which was you play as 
world leaders. 

829
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,880
So like like super deformed 
versions of these world leaders 

830
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:27,560
and you're in a boxing ring, but
but your giant size, so you're 

831
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,440
like Kaiju size and your stuff 
in the boxing ring that's like 

832
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,120
the world is like. 
Tiny compared to. 

833
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,760
The tiny compared to you. 
So you're, you're just these 

834
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,040
giant boxers and you're it's 
still a boxing game in your 

835
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,000
boxing and but you're these, 
these famous like. 

836
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,160
You could be like Stalin and you
could be like, yeah, Shay. 

837
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,000
I mean, it was like it was some 
deep long. 

838
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,280
Box, Right. 
And then, and then each, each of

839
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,880
the boxers had these little 
smaller characters that would 

840
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,760
like, like you'd hit somebody 
and stars would come out of them

841
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,040
and they would litter and they 
would litter the landscape. 

842
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,920
And you could go and collect 
them or you could have these 

843
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,720
little minions that would go off
and do it. 

844
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,880
And so like Bill Clinton's 
minions. 

845
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,680
And the idea was that all this 
would be would the art style for

846
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:18,040
this would all look like 
political cartoons? 

847
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:19,280
Yeah. 
Right. 

848
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,520
Right. 
And so you're, you're like, if 

849
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,400
you're a Bill Clinton, your 
little minions were these little

850
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:29,240
these little brunettes and blue 
skirts right around collecting. 

851
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:34,080
It was a reason it wasn't me. 
If any of my students are 

852
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,680
listening to go ahead Mike. 
I'm just imagining like a secret

853
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,040
character that is just like a 
fat cat with dollar signs for 

854
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,080
eyes is like just like the. 
Cliche. 

855
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,240
Old time of. 
Tearing Yeah. 

856
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,640
CEO of Coke. 
You know, Osama bin Laden was, 

857
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,880
was one of the boxers and and 
even have those little 

858
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,880
terrorists, these little 
characters running around. 

859
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,560
It was, yeah. 
It would not have. 

860
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:01,960
It would not have held up. 
Yes, and I think shock and awe 

861
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,520
had right we'll. 
See, that's the reason, that's 

862
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,640
the, that's the actual reason it
got cancelled because somebody 

863
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,240
in PR and like the Sony, you 
know, some at some point had 

864
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:19,280
tried to trademark the term 
shock and awe for Sony, for Sony

865
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,280
and it and it had gotten out and
there had been this huge PR 

866
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,800
backlash. 
And then all of a sudden Sony 

867
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,840
was like, we're not doing 
anything political, nothing 

868
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,600
political, and this game is 
cancelled. 

869
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,280
That's fascinating because I've 
I've, you hear a lot about, you 

870
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,000
know, vaporware and games that 
never came to be, but I don't 

871
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,040
even remember ever even hearing 
about this one. 

872
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:43,640
Like it never got out of like 
the no. 

873
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:45,760
No, it was in the. 
It was in the design. 

874
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,960
Eternal yeah, that's that's 
fascinating. 

875
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,960
But definitely like a DVD mic 
would have owned like it's all 

876
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,720
the world leaders as Kaiju 
that's right up like that. 

877
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,280
I love that. 
That is weird that that feels 

878
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,000
like that asked to already be an
anime. 

879
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,400
Yeah, for sure. 
You know, or like a debate team 

880
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,120
or something, I don't know. 
Manga. 

881
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:06,800
It might just be manga. 
There you. 

882
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,840
Go there you go well, you know 
some of the things you were 

883
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,960
saying I kind of you know, I'm 
getting little hits of lox quest

884
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:14,240
and things I want to say about 
this team. 

885
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:15,960
So let's let's get in the. 
Lox Quest. 

886
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,240
Yeah, actual. 
Some poor fan is listening to 

887
00:49:20,240 --> 00:49:21,200
this. 
Like when are they going to get 

888
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,840
to Lox Quest? 
I have a general question about 

889
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,880
LOX quest here that I think any 
of you can jump on since I just 

890
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,520
played the steam port. 
Yeah. 

891
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,280
And Nintendo is notoriously 
weird in how they design 

892
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:42,520
systems. 
I realized I don't think I've 

893
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,600
ever actually like played on 
ADS. 

894
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:47,600
Wow. 
Oh, right. 

895
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,280
What happens with that? 
Like what's the button 

896
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,760
configuration and stuff? 
And I think multiple screens. 

897
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:57,240
I'm not. 
I don't. 

898
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:58,080
Know how it? 
Works. 

899
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,240
Oh yeah. 
So it was a it was a clamshell 

900
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:08,440
that this way it opened up and 
you had a screen on the top and 

901
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,040
a screen on the bottom and you 
and on the bottom you had I 

902
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,400
think the the controls were on 
the bottom. 

903
00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:18,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
And so you had AD pad and a 

904
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:23,880
couple of buttons. 
And so frequently the the games 

905
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,560
would have the main the main 
screen, the screen you're 

906
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,680
running around on on one of the 
screens and you use the other 

907
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,520
screen for other information. 
But sometimes it would actually 

908
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:40,120
expand out there it is. 
Yeah, yeah, that's it tilted a 

909
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,240
little bit so that the light can
see the buttons. 

910
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,120
Yeah, yeah. 
So you have the D pad on one 

911
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:49,920
side and you've got yeah, the 
joystick and and a little like 

912
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:57,680
a, a nub, right. 
And so sometimes the information

913
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,400
like depending on the game it 
would use the two screens in 

914
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,520
different ways. 
You know the the bottom screen 

915
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,840
is a touch screen that you would
interact with using the stylus, 

916
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:07,360
right? 
You could. 

917
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,400
So that is essentially how you 
play locks. 

918
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,800
Quest is entirely stylus driven 
except for moving the camera, 

919
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:18,200
which you could you do with the 
little slider the the the new 

920
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,440
hotness. 
Andy, I don't know if you've 

921
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,520
heard this rumor, but the switch
too has USBC ports on the top 

922
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,640
and bottom. 
So the popular theory is that 

923
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:31,200
when we eventually get DS games,
they will sell a second screen 

924
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,960
folding peripheral that you fold
over the switch. 

925
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,760
And because this you know, this 
is touchscreen. 

926
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,920
So you just need that second 
screen to have DS functionality.

927
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,120
Be pretty cool, Be pretty cool. 
Yeah. 

928
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,760
So Mike, when you played the 
Steam port, there was a 

929
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,000
segmented screen on your like 
computer. 

930
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:51,840
There was not. 
It's a single screen. 

931
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,640
OK, sounds like it'd be 
difficult. 

932
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,200
Interesting. 
I'm trying to remember now what 

933
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,240
I mean. 
Jeremy, you might. 

934
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,720
You've played it more recently. 
Sure have. 

935
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:08,360
What was on the top screen? 
Top screen was your stats. 

936
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,280
That's right, your the the timer
which. 

937
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,960
So for those who haven't played 
the game, you're essentially 

938
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:19,520
your goal is to survive the day.
Yeah, So, yeah, each each level 

939
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:27,800
in the game, each each location 
and day is a is a tower defense 

940
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,480
game. 
Yes, into itself with, with 

941
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,240
different level designs, because
the, the terrain itself would 

942
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,040
would give you different 
challenges. 

943
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,040
Yeah. 
And so yeah. 

944
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,120
And so you know, a a certain 
number of waves of creeps would 

945
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,800
would show up and you'd have to 
make sure your your towers could

946
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,800
defeat all of the creeps before 
they got through. 

947
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:50,400
Yeah, and, and, and let's talk 
about that for a second. 

948
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:53,400
The the the clockwork is the 
name of the baddies in this one.

949
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,080
The clockwork for the creeps. 
So I'm using generic. 

950
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,080
I'm using like game designer 
generic talk for. 

951
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:00,960
Yeah. 
Right. 

952
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,560
Yeah, yeah, the creeps in terms 
of gameplay, yeah, totally. 

953
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,400
But so this game, it is very 
stressful. 

954
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:09,880
It is. 
It is challenging. 

955
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,320
Jackie, you remember playing it 
and being like, this is a hard 

956
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:13,920
freaking game. 
Right. 

957
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,760
Because it's endless, you know, 
it's just one of those games 

958
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,200
that you, you just you're like, 
OK, all right, I did it. 

959
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,440
And then you're like and two. 
Yep. 

960
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,320
And then you're like, OK, all 
right, all right. 

961
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,800
But there's something, I mean, 
it was very satisfying. 

962
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,680
I remember being incredibly 
addicted to it and and 

963
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:37,320
definitely interested in just I 
was like, because I thought that

964
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:41,920
the art, you know, sometimes the
art is so it it helps the game 

965
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,760
play so much that even if it's a
just a, you know, like a tower 

966
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,720
defense game doesn't sound that 
interesting, right? 

967
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:53,880
It sounds pretty basic, but the 
is that doom? 

968
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,040
What is that? 
That's Lord agony. 

969
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,320
That's Lord agony. 
That's the that's the main bad 

970
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,360
guy. 
Timu Dr. No yeah, yeah, you 

971
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,080
know, he very reminiscent Jackie
of Doctor Doom, but I'm going to

972
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,080
get into a second how deep this 
character is but yeah, I totally

973
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:11,280
with you like I don't play tower
defense games because. 

974
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,960
They they're compelling. 
There's they're they're so 

975
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,240
compelling that they'll take you
off the grid. 

976
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,880
They'll just be like, OK, well, 
this is what I do now. 

977
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,000
Yeah, I play this game so. 
Well, and my students, my 

978
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,960
students play like Clash of 
Clans, which is a very famous 

979
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,240
tower defense game that makes 
millions of dollars or whatever,

980
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:32,240
but they don't ever talk about 
the characters like Locks Quest 

981
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:33,920
has some cool characters. 
Mike, what were you going to 

982
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:36,960
say? 
I would say like I, I play a 

983
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,120
fair amount of tower defense 
games until usually either I 

984
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:44,160
beaten it or I had it's hit a 
point where like, OK, this is a 

985
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:45,880
particular spot was really 
annoying. 

986
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:47,880
But like I I've gone through a 
lot. 

987
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:53,840
The thing I wasn't prepared for 
at all with this was I can't 

988
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,520
think of another tower defense 
game I played that has decided 

989
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,200
to go, Oh, you survived that. 
That's the end of this day. 

990
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,680
Your next level is that same 
level and things are and some 

991
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:08,320
things are carrying over. 
And so I'm very used to ones 

992
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,760
where it's like, OK, I got by. 
That's all that matters. 

993
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,640
It's a fresh start and this had 
a lot of like, Oh well, 

994
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:20,560
everything's destroyed and I 
have no resources anymore. 

995
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:22,880
But you. 
But they're coming again. 

996
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,760
And it for me, it was just like,
well, I'm starting a new game 

997
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,480
because. 
Too, too frustrating. 

998
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,360
No, it was just. 
No, it was just. 

999
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:37,080
I have no resources anymore. 
I can't beat this. 

1000
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,840
At this point. 
I need to start back over and 

1001
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,200
play the previous level better. 
Yeah. 

1002
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,520
Oh, right, right. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did that 

1003
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:46,680
too. 
I remember that. 

1004
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,920
Yeah. 
It's going oh, I'm done for a 

1005
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,800
hot SEC here. 
Allow me to rest and I forget 

1006
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:54,920
how far back. 
You didn't have to go back 

1007
00:55:55,120 --> 00:56:01,240
forever, right, Did you? 
I did no OK on, on, on Steam. 

1008
00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:04,120
There was not the ability to 
like, oh, I'm saving every time 

1009
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,720
things feel all right. 
Oh yeah. 

1010
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:09,280
That sucks. 
Yeah, that's not. 

1011
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:12,800
Yeah, yeah. 
What what what Jackie's 

1012
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,440
referring to is that you can 
every time you lose, you can 

1013
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,480
retry, which is just, hey, I can
do that better. 

1014
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,240
Because what's so also what's so
compelling about this game is 

1015
00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:23,840
that it's tower defense, but you
are boots on the ground running 

1016
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,520
around as the character 
attacking things and fixing 

1017
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,080
things. 
And every action in the game is 

1018
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:35,800
its own 3 second mini game where
it's like, oh, I got to repair 

1019
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,040
this tower. 
So now I'm sliding my stylus 

1020
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,320
back and forth across the like 
I'm ratcheting like, you know, 

1021
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:41,600
it's, it feels like it's. 
Serious. 

1022
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,760
You know, now I'm poisoning. 
So now I'm like spinning the 

1023
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,560
stylus here, right, right. 
And which, by the way, I guess 

1024
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:50,640
you didn't develop this game, 
but Jackie has a joke about 

1025
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,640
like, do you ever think about 
games when we're making love? 

1026
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,200
And it's like some of this game 
is really tactile. 

1027
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,640
You know, it's like you're 
spinning, you're swiping, you're

1028
00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:00,200
you're going all over the place 
and people are moaning and it's 

1029
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,560
very intense. 
And then and I. 

1030
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:06,000
Don't remember that joke, but I.
Well, you said that you 

1031
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,120
sometimes think about comedy 
when you're being intimate, so 

1032
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,520
you ever think about game 
design? 

1033
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,760
Right. 
That's the newer newer. 

1034
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:18,920
That is a new bit, but see that 
is what I think Andys thinking 

1035
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,600
about sometimes. 
And he said that question sounds

1036
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,120
like a trap. 
He's trying to Well, it's but 

1037
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:26,680
it's funny, though. 
So Mike talked about this game 

1038
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:28,920
being so difficult because you 
run out of resources. 

1039
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:31,400
And so I looked up online. 
I was like, I'm not getting this

1040
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:32,680
done. 
I don't have the money to do 

1041
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:33,960
this. 
And this guy online is like, 

1042
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:38,880
yeah, land mines, just use land 
mines and just coat the map in 

1043
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,040
these things that will. 
And I was like, oh, This is why 

1044
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:45,680
this is a problem in actual 
warfare and why like, you know, 

1045
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,720
thousands of land mines are like
a problem for decades is because

1046
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,760
it was so much more cost 
effective than building 

1047
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:53,520
infrastructure. 
And I was like, like kind of 

1048
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:57,040
dark, but like. 
Yeah, but I, I don't think we 

1049
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:02,440
ever, I don't think we realized 
that there it was a degenerative

1050
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:07,680
strategy though, but you. 
Know but what is degenerative 

1051
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:11,200
though is the story Like do you 
recall? 

1052
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,320
Do you recall how dark this plot
line gets? 

1053
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,120
Oh yeah. 
OK. 

1054
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:17,920
So. 
My my. 

1055
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,840
Permission OK. 
Permission to go into spoilers. 

1056
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:22,800
Please. 
Do OK. 

1057
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:26,520
So listen, if you're going to 
play this game, $15 on eBay is 

1058
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,360
the general asking price for a 
used copy. 

1059
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,320
So if you're going to play it, I
don't know, skip 30 seconds or 

1060
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,440
something. 
But so Jackie has a joke about 

1061
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,520
how the more messed up a concept
is, the more fun the game is 

1062
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,160
going to be, right? 
So this whole time you're 

1063
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,320
stressed out that the killer 
robots are going to kill all 

1064
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:43,520
your friends and neighbors, 
right? 

1065
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,360
So then, you know, OK, get to 
the next day, very, very 

1066
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:49,000
stressful. 
And then you meet this cute 

1067
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,480
little Guga named Blue Bit, 
right? 

1068
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,200
Yeah. 
And now the killer robots are 

1069
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,400
after him, like, and he gets, he
gets hit and he's like, yeah, 

1070
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,280
it's, it's messed up. 
Right, because it's the most 

1071
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,640
adorable character and you're 
like, no. 

1072
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,360
And and I'm fine with that, but 
he doesn't do anything else in 

1073
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,640
the story. 
He's just there to make you feel

1074
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:13,240
bad when you don't do a good 
enough job defending the 

1075
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,600
precious little boy. 
So then you find your sister 

1076
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,200
Emmy, adorable kid. 
Right now the killer robots are 

1077
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,800
after her. 
And it's just like this keeps 

1078
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:28,480
getting more stressful. 
Then here's the major spoiler 

1079
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:30,360
territory. 
Evil robot king. 

1080
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,480
Remember who he is Andy your 
your uncle. 

1081
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,240
Yeah, right, right. 
Oh, right, you. 

1082
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:40,280
You don't know it at first. 
You you learn it. 

1083
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:41,200
Yeah, Yeah. 
So it's. 

1084
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:46,200
Spider verse Yeah, it's. 
Low key like spider verse, not 

1085
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:47,480
low key. 
Well done anyway. 

1086
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:53,880
But so in the third act of the 
game, he kills your sister. 

1087
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,600
And his niece. 
And. 

1088
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,840
Gears come out of her. 
She's Mike, right? 

1089
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:01,960
Mike. 
Wow. 

1090
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,720
Oh, it gets so much better. 
It gets so much better. 

1091
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,840
She guys. 
And he killer robot king. 

1092
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:11,800
Your betrayal Shakespearean 
uncle is the only one who can 

1093
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,280
bring her back. 
So now you're killing your 

1094
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:17,200
friends and neighbors to defend 
the former villain of the story.

1095
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:19,240
OK. 
Wow. 

1096
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,000
End of the game can't bring her 
back to life because she was 

1097
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,280
never a human in the 1st place. 
She's a robot, so the main 

1098
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:34,040
character kills himself and 
gives his soul to her so she can

1099
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,040
be. 
Yes, Locke chooses death so that

1100
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,520
Emmy can become. 
A I do not remember this victory

1101
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,560
screen. 
Jackie, Jackie, your husband 

1102
01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:48,080
greenlit this bullshit. 
OK, the last shot of this game 

1103
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:52,520
is Emmy at your grave, the 
player character's grave, saying

1104
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,920
thank you for your life. 
And then Locke walks up from 

1105
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:58,800
behind her and says hey, want to
play hide and seek? 

1106
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:04,040
He is now the soulless robot. 
You are dead and she built a 

1107
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,480
robot version of you. 
Holy hell, is that not the most 

1108
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:08,600
disturbing? 
I don't. 

1109
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:11,480
I don't remember whether she 
built it or whether your uncle 

1110
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:13,200
built it. 
Something, yeah. 

1111
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:14,800
Your camera just went away, 
Andy. 

1112
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:16,680
He did. 
Oh my gosh, what it Why? 

1113
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,520
He's gobsmacked, so it's some 
like. 

1114
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,760
Reverse Pinocchio thing, yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1115
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:29,920
I remember having conversations 
with Joe about this and and and 

1116
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,880
he was like, no, this is the way
it's got to be. 

1117
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:40,040
But such a compelling story for 
a tower defense game for the. 

1118
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:42,400
DS. 
For the DS in. 

1119
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,720
The box, I mean, there's no 
reason why you can't tell a 

1120
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:47,080
story. 
I mean it, it was, you know, 

1121
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:49,400
probably 30 or 48 hours of 
gameplay, right? 

1122
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:53,640
Yeah, 100 days, 100 levels and 
then everyone divided into 

1123
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:57,680
building and battling and I am 
so glad that I Nintend did beat 

1124
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,680
this game. 
Excellent. 

1125
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:05,640
Some sound effect. 
Because I think that is the 

1126
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:07,680
thing that people don't talk 
about with this game. 

1127
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,080
I was reading reviews at the 
time because our friend Cyril 

1128
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:11,320
from defunct games love to do 
that. 

1129
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,720
And it's like there were some 
reviews saying, oh, it's just a 

1130
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,440
boilerplate fantasy store, 
cliche Hero's journey. 

1131
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,800
Like, no, no, no, no. 
It it it has it has way. 

1132
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:22,960
There's way more. 
I mean, yeah, the the, the 

1133
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:28,400
pitch, you know, the, you know, 
the fantasy tower defense run 

1134
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,440
around and and build your towers
would have been enough for us to

1135
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,280
green light a game like this, 
right. 

1136
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,600
So it's entirely Joe pushing 
really hard to get this kind of 

1137
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:44,440
deep storyline into it. 
And to. 

1138
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:45,400
Make it super. 
Awesome. 

1139
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,080
Weird. 
That gets the reaction that you 

1140
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:50,760
have, which is what ultimately 
what you want, right? 

1141
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:55,360
You want, you want people to 
have like a strong emotional 

1142
01:02:55,360 --> 01:03:01,040
reaction to, to the games you're
making a. 100% yeah, but like I 

1143
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:03,640
just I my hat's off to everyone 
who worked on this game and 

1144
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:05,920
everyone who greenlit this game 
and everyone who supported the 

1145
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:09,160
families making this game. 
It was just like, because can 

1146
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:09,920
you put a shit? 
I'll. 

1147
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,120
Tell you the marketing people 
never played the game all the 

1148
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:14,520
way through it. 
Kind of shows. 

1149
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,240
Yeah, and, and this was by 
design. 

1150
01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:22,360
Right, nobody encouraged. 
Like, no, we never encouraged 

1151
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,600
them to play the game all the 
way through because I don't know

1152
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:28,960
that I don't. 
I honestly don't know how they 

1153
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:32,240
would have felt about the game 
being that dark. 

1154
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:33,720
Yeah. 
Yeah, right. 

1155
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:35,680
Yeah. 
Especially the part where like 

1156
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,880
you kind of choose death. 
I was like, wow, like, I don't 

1157
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:40,600
know if you could get away with 
that ending. 

1158
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:49,200
Yeah, and and and honestly, you 
know, even then I think it would

1159
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,200
have been problematic like 
marketing would have really 

1160
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,200
rethought if. 
Someone would have noticed. 

1161
01:03:54,920 --> 01:04:00,280
If someone were to was was going
to notice how dark it was, they 

1162
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,480
made a they made a rethought 
because they had a lot of of 

1163
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,400
pull at THQ in regards to what 
got released and what didn't get

1164
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,160
released, and they had complete 
control over how much money was 

1165
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:12,600
spent on marketing. 
Yeah. 

1166
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:17,120
Oh, the marketing people, yeah. 
So like, you know, there's, 

1167
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:24,560
there's surely they know by now.
But yeah, there's a, there's a 

1168
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:28,680
reason that developers don't 
like to show marketing people 

1169
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:33,360
the game until it's done because
they get the, they get the, 

1170
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,400
they, they see it early, you 
know, they, they'll, they'll see

1171
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,000
it early and they'll, and 
they'll see it for six months 

1172
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:44,080
and, and, and the, and the game 
will still have a year or six 

1173
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:45,680
months or a year to, to get 
done. 

1174
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,400
But they'll get bored. 
Yeah. 

1175
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,880
And they'll get bored because 
they saw it last year and 

1176
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:54,880
they're bored with it by now. 
They want they they're now 

1177
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,800
looking at the new shiny things 
that are in prototype form and 

1178
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:03,000
they're at, but they're 
allocating money now based on 

1179
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:07,080
their excitement. 
Like South Park doesn't ever let

1180
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:10,480
anybody see it till it's done so
that they don't get notes. 

1181
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:12,680
Yeah, probably, yeah. 
Yeah, such. 

1182
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,520
Creative cycle is like a week 
like this. 

1183
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,400
Yeah, you can. 
You can. 

1184
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:21,720
How much of that? 
Our creative cycle for this was 

1185
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,480
two years, so. 
How much of that is, is there a 

1186
01:05:25,640 --> 01:05:29,080
concern also that like if you 
let them know about the weird 

1187
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,000
things that happened later, that
marketing will decide that's a 

1188
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,360
marketing point and we're like 
undercut? 

1189
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:39,800
Oh, and they'll spoiler it. 
Yeah, either either they will 

1190
01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:44,200
want to, they'll get excited 
about it and want to and want to

1191
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:49,120
lead with that, or they'll be 
turned off by it and want to 

1192
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:53,200
have it removed from the game. 
Yeah, Every time I watch a 

1193
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:56,680
trailer for a movie where it's 
too long, I'm like, well, I 

1194
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:58,120
don't need to see this movie 
anymore. 

1195
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,000
Yeah, because I've seen the 
movie in the trailer, right? 

1196
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,640
I remember being weirdly 
surprised with animated movie 

1197
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,320
Megamind where I thought that it
had just given everything in the

1198
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,960
in the way. 
I was like, oh, this actually 

1199
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:14,840
just had a twist. 
Still, that's that's amazing. 

1200
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:18,480
Yeah, I was. 
I've been happily surprised a 

1201
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:20,840
couple of times where I've gone 
in and going. 

1202
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,200
I think I know what this movie 
is about from the trailer and 

1203
01:06:24,200 --> 01:06:26,880
find out that I know everything 
about the first third of the 

1204
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:29,920
movie and absolutely nothing 
about the second third of the 

1205
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:33,520
second. 3rd and I think the. 
Flip side is where like at this 

1206
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:37,280
point like if you buy planet of 
the apes like the Statue of 

1207
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:43,280
Liberty is on the cover right? 
Right, exactly. 

1208
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,680
But at this point it's a 40, you
know, it's a 50 year old movie. 

1209
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,840
You should know, like cultural 
knowledge, that you should just 

1210
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:53,800
know what that what? 
That's what that's about. 

1211
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:58,600
I I I remember when when. 
What's the rosebud? 

1212
01:06:58,600 --> 01:06:59,960
What's Citizen? 
Kane. 

1213
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,240
Citizen Kane, No. 
Citizen Kane was playing one 

1214
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:04,320
afternoon and my and my 
stepmother, I was like, well, 

1215
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,680
what's this? 
And she said it's, it's a, you 

1216
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:08,720
know, you're not going to like 
this movie. 

1217
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:10,400
And I said, well, what's 
Rosebud? 

1218
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,880
She goes, it's a slut, just go 
play. 

1219
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,800
And I was like, and I realized 
like 10 years later that she had

1220
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:22,360
completely ruined. 
So couple of things though, that

1221
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,360
about this game we didn't really
touch on yet because there's 

1222
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,600
there's a lot of little, you 
know, different types of 

1223
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:29,320
gameplay variety. 
Like we kind of touched on the 

1224
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:32,640
story all told through these 
really likable characters, very 

1225
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:37,520
well drawn, well animated, this 
wonderful swelling music, very 

1226
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:40,680
fantasy fanfare, you know, brass
instruments. 

1227
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,920
It just just nails the look and 
feel of it in a way that, you 

1228
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:46,880
know, just really charmed me. 
But then there's also these 

1229
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:51,440
little kind of side quests, I 
guess, because like every attack

1230
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:55,760
is this 3 second mini game. 
But then there's these more well

1231
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:59,640
developed diversions. 
Like there's a 2D mode where you

1232
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:03,600
man turrets manually, kind of 
like angry bird style, right? 

1233
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,080
Angry Bird would be a great 
Jackie Cashin album. 

1234
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:07,200
Just putting that in the 
universe. 

1235
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,760
But but like I I really enjoyed 
like, you know, the kind of 

1236
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:13,960
Mike, do you remember those PC 
games we played where like you 

1237
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,439
kind of shot the trajectory? 
Did you get to one of these 

1238
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:19,160
levels in the Steam version? 
I didn't. 

1239
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:21,880
How early did you reach the 
first of those? 

1240
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,880
I want to say like 10 to 15 
levels in. 

1241
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:26,160
Yeah, that's about right, I 
think. 

1242
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,760
I think there's three of them 
throughout the 100 levels of the

1243
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:30,520
game. 
Yeah. 

1244
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:32,960
But it was just like, OK, this 
is really cool. 

1245
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,840
And like game plays kind of mix 
it up a little bit, you know? 

1246
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,399
And I'm a huge fan of that. 
Whenever you can take an 

1247
01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:43,439
experience and appeal to a wide 
range of play styles. 

1248
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,359
So, so that was one of those 
things where as a creative 

1249
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:51,200
developer, I was always or 
creative creative director, I 

1250
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:55,399
was always really worried about,
but fifth sell them like that's 

1251
01:08:55,399 --> 01:09:01,600
fifth sells bread and butter. 
They I would, you know, because 

1252
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,880
every time that somebody comes 
up, so we'll put a mini game in 

1253
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:07,399
here and you're like, wait a 
minute, now you have to develop 

1254
01:09:07,399 --> 01:09:11,600
an entire another game and you 
have to make that game fun too. 

1255
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:15,520
And you know, and if you're 
going to make another game and 

1256
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:21,479
make that game fun, why not just
make that other game, right. 

1257
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:29,640
And so, and I was, and, and so I
was always nervous when 5th Cell

1258
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,760
would pitch these ideas, but 
then they would just do it and 

1259
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:36,680
it would be great. 
Like that was honestly one of 

1260
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:39,479
their core strengths is that 
they would they, they, they get 

1261
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:42,640
excited about an idea and then 
two days later they'd have it 

1262
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,800
working. 
So. 

1263
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:48,720
My favorite is the crafting 
system. 

1264
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,279
Mike, You probably got to the 
crafting system right, where you

1265
01:09:51,279 --> 01:09:55,440
have, like they show you the 
finished product, they show you 

1266
01:09:55,440 --> 01:09:59,360
what your new invention should 
look like, and then they present

1267
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:03,320
to you a open Lego chest 
essentially, of 20 different 

1268
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,720
pieces of scrap. 
And you have to kind of sort 

1269
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,320
through, OK, which piece do I 
need and where does it go? 

1270
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:11,400
It's very simple, but very 
satisfying. 

1271
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:15,680
Andy, you remember this mode 
every single time. 

1272
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:18,080
And it was also fun is that it 
didn't make it too easy. 

1273
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:20,400
Some of the shapes you really 
had to kind of lean in and be 

1274
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,720
like, wait a minute, that's the 
wrong kind of nut and bolt that 

1275
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,920
doesn't quite fit. 
And mercifully, the timer of the

1276
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,920
game stops when you're in this 
mode, so you can really enjoy 

1277
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:33,400
it. 
Yeah, I was such a fan of it 

1278
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:35,880
that I, I, if you guys would 
humor me for just two minutes 

1279
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,320
here. 
That was that was the way that 

1280
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:42,000
you would develop basically the 
recipes of things that you could

1281
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,920
build in the field when the 
timer was on. 

1282
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:46,560
Yes, yes. 
Every new turret, every new 

1283
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:49,840
trap, Yeah, is is assembled that
way. 

1284
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:53,720
So I made a quick mini game for 
us because I know you love to 

1285
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,440
gamify things. 
So Jackie, Andy, Mike, if you'll

1286
01:10:56,440 --> 01:10:59,480
play with me, I'm calling this 
components opponents. 

1287
01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,120
And what the way it works is 
that I'm I'm going to describe 

1288
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:05,720
some shapes to you, then I'm 
going to hold it up for the 

1289
01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,360
camera and whoever shouts out 
what it is first when it's 

1290
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,920
reconstructed gets the point. 
OK, start out pretty simple 

1291
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,480
video game here can. 
You show us an example. 

1292
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,360
Well, we can make the first one 
not count if you want that 

1293
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:20,320
because the first one is very. 
Yeah, No, we'll just. 

1294
01:11:20,480 --> 01:11:21,320
We'll play. 
We'll play I. 

1295
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,080
Think you're going to get it 
right away? 

1296
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:24,760
OK, OK. 
All right, So here are the 

1297
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,040
components. 
Yellow semicircles. 

1298
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,360
What is it? 
Pac-Man. 

1299
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:34,960
Pac-Man Jackie gets one point. 
Right, that's also because I saw

1300
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,920
it through. 
And it's also been on Mike's 

1301
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:42,600
shirt and Mike's and Mike's 
awesome Solar System shirt. 

1302
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:44,480
Yeah, Mike is wearing a Pac-Man 
shirt right now. 

1303
01:11:44,480 --> 01:11:45,520
OK, This is a little more 
difficult. 

1304
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:48,560
This is a little more difficult.
OK, OK, This one's a power up. 

1305
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,280
Purple semicircle, white 
rectangle. 

1306
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,680
The power up. 
Power down technically. 

1307
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,400
Power. 
You don't want to get this. 

1308
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:04,640
It's the poison mushroom. 
The poison mushroom Mario. 

1309
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,000
Yeah, there we. 
Go wow. 

1310
01:12:07,320 --> 01:12:09,440
All right, Mike, good. 
I was like OK, come on, Mike, 

1311
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:10,760
come on. 
We played this game recently. 

1312
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:12,200
I'm. 
So psyched that I'm on the 

1313
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:13,360
board. 
OK. 

1314
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,800
You're on the board. 
You are tied for first, all 

1315
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:18,760
right? 
This one is in the game 

1316
01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:21,840
development. 
How embarrassing. 

1317
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:24,560
I'm terrible at playing my own 
games. 

1318
01:12:25,440 --> 01:12:28,680
It's a weird thing. 
All right, round 4 rounds, by 

1319
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:30,280
the way, with a potential 
tiebreaker that's a bit 

1320
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:32,720
cerebral. 
This one is a physical video 

1321
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,520
game object. 
Red circles, Gray rectangle 

1322
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:42,000
shapes. 
That's the sorry NES controller.

1323
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:46,320
Mike takes it again. 
The NES controller. 

1324
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,720
Look at nice. 
You know Mike, our guest was 

1325
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:49,520
getting it. 
You could. 

1326
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:51,120
Have. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had that 

1327
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,720
one. 
Elbowing Andy inside, all right.

1328
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:58,280
So on that, so go back to the so
on that one, I was slightly 

1329
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:00,280
confused. 
This is my creative director 

1330
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:04,680
feedback on this puzzle that. 
I made on Google slide. 

1331
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:11,680
You made on Google Slide. 
Flip it over the I thought that 

1332
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:15,560
the the the the angle bits where
they were were like your 

1333
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:18,160
registration marks because you 
actually have registration marks

1334
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:21,840
on the other one. 
So you've got registration marks

1335
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:22,560
all. 
Right. 

1336
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:27,040
I was picking my games. 
No little girls get killed or 

1337
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:30,600
whatever I mean. 
Technically in his no little 

1338
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:32,280
girl got killed either. 
That's. 

1339
01:13:32,480 --> 01:13:34,840
True, right, true. 
That's like the boy took the 

1340
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,000
bullet for his sister took. 
The bullet. 

1341
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:40,600
OK, well, so Mike's in the lead,
so we'll do double points for 

1342
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:41,720
this one. 
Actually, you know what triple 

1343
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:43,520
points with? 
Anybody's game triple points 

1344
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:45,280
this is. 
It taking a chance with this 

1345
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,240
one. 
This one's a person. 

1346
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:56,400
Orange, orange triangle, yellow 
box D's facing down. 

1347
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:00,400
This is someone important to all
of us. 

1348
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:07,240
No, it's Trump. 
Nope, not that important. 

1349
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:09,800
That's his toupee on the on the 
lower left. 

1350
01:14:11,440 --> 01:14:13,360
This is going to This is not 
going to go well. 

1351
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:16,480
And he's unhappy. 
And he goes, Mike. 

1352
01:14:18,480 --> 01:14:20,640
What do you got, Mike? 
Nah, this. 

1353
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,320
Is the toughest 1. 
Mike's going to take it away, 

1354
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:24,960
No. 
It's Jackie. 

1355
01:14:29,240 --> 01:14:32,480
Yay component opponents. 
Have you ever read a comic book 

1356
01:14:32,480 --> 01:14:34,840
called Rex Libris? 
It was one of the first ones 

1357
01:14:35,240 --> 01:14:37,560
Andy ever turned me on to, and 
that's what that looks like. 

1358
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:41,160
It looks like Rex Libris, 
interstellar librarian who would

1359
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,760
go get overdue books back from 
bad guys. 

1360
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:48,160
And I, for some reason, have a 
statue of. 

1361
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:50,840
Yeah, I was. 
There was a statuette that that 

1362
01:14:50,840 --> 01:14:53,040
was released at our comic book 
store. 

1363
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:55,280
People like Jackie so much they 
bought it for her. 

1364
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:59,280
Unlikable. 
If that's better for engagement,

1365
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,400
then that's what that was. 
Right. 

1366
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:05,040
Well, Rex Libros, everybody read
it. 

1367
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:07,680
That's right. 
Anything else you want to praise

1368
01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:09,520
about Locks quest before we go 
into? 

1369
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:13,400
I do want to, I want to go back 
a little bit and talk about you 

1370
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,640
were talking about the, the post
game stuff. 

1371
01:15:17,400 --> 01:15:21,360
And I want to talk about, 
because I, I even at that point,

1372
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:26,360
I hadn't sort of formulated 
this, this thought about how 

1373
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:31,600
important it is to have post 
game, or I should say post story

1374
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,840
material in a game. 
It works. 

1375
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:38,000
And this is this is not just 
game design. 

1376
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:39,600
Now we're just we're just 
talking about game design 

1377
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:42,960
theory. 
Now there is, I think it's 

1378
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,160
really important for games to 
have and more people are getting

1379
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:51,720
this, the games that have a 
Daniel Mont like because before 

1380
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:56,680
you know Mario, Mario, you know,
you know, rescues Princess Peach

1381
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,640
and defeats Bowser and yay, 
there's a celebration. 

1382
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:02,080
Game over bone. 
Dana Mont. 

1383
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:03,800
I always call them victory 
screens or. 

1384
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,240
Afters. 
Yeah, The Afters, anything that 

1385
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:10,920
anything that comes after the 
main, the main plot is done, 

1386
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:16,240
gives us time to emotionally 
sort of like come to grips with 

1387
01:16:16,440 --> 01:16:19,160
what just happened. 
Big dramatic things have just 

1388
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:22,280
happened. 
And to like, yank us out of the 

1389
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:26,000
experience immediately 
afterwards is really jarring. 

1390
01:16:26,440 --> 01:16:31,440
And why so many horror movies do
exactly that, right? 

1391
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:36,400
Because they want you walking 
out of the theater emotionally. 

1392
01:16:38,680 --> 01:16:40,840
You know they want your nerves 
to still be jangling. 

1393
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,800
I just saw Zach Kreger's 
Weapons, which is one of the 

1394
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,880
only movies to get how weird and
terrifying being a teacher is 

1395
01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:52,760
that that movie really nailed 
that. 

1396
01:16:52,880 --> 01:16:55,400
But. 
But how old are your students? 

1397
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:57,200
I teach middle school. 
OK. 

1398
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:58,760
Oh God. 
No, no, that's. 

1399
01:16:58,760 --> 01:16:59,360
The worst? 
They're fine. 

1400
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:04,440
They're they just want someone 
to be nice to them, honestly and

1401
01:17:04,440 --> 01:17:08,560
actually, and also quick side 
tangent, Jackie, you know, your 

1402
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:12,360
comedy has been a regular on my 
Spotify stand up playlist for a 

1403
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:16,040
very long time. 
Do you like the spooky reading, 

1404
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:18,360
girl? 
It's a very junior high kind of 

1405
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,440
bit. 
Yeah, like my sister said that 

1406
01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:25,560
she actually said to her 
daughter when she was 

1407
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:27,120
complaining about not having any
friends. 

1408
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:28,760
She said. 
Are you friendly? 

1409
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:32,240
Yes, it. 
Blew Noah's mind, just like it 

1410
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:36,040
blew my mind when the teacher 
told us that it to me. 

1411
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:38,640
But but Speaking of being 
friendly, though, one thing I 

1412
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:42,360
always loved about your bits was
that you are very vocal about 

1413
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:46,600
how much you love your husband. 
And, you know, well, that was, 

1414
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:50,280
you know, the groundbreaking in 
odds comedy. 

1415
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,200
And you would complain about 
like these male comics, which 

1416
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:55,760
is, oh, you bitch about my wife 
and this and that and that. 

1417
01:17:55,760 --> 01:17:59,600
And I'm like, and I love my wife
and I love our relationship. 

1418
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:02,680
And it's like, it meant a lot to
see someone. 

1419
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:05,880
Yeah, I saw, I saw. 
I see myself in your bits and I 

1420
01:18:06,440 --> 01:18:11,320
I love your love. 
We are in love, we are still in 

1421
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:12,960
the, we are still in like, which
is. 

1422
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:14,280
That's true. 
That is nice. 

1423
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:15,880
That's that's harder to maintain
sometimes. 

1424
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:19,120
And if you listen to enough of 
her comedy, you'll know all 

1425
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:22,960
about our sex life, too. 
Yeah, you spin the style. 

1426
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:23,960
It's. 
Speculative. 

1427
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:27,400
It's just, it's just something 
that I'm just pitching. 

1428
01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:32,960
What about this? 
Do this so. 

1429
01:18:34,480 --> 01:18:37,640
We go right to the source launch
quest, yes. 

1430
01:18:37,680 --> 01:18:42,480
What? 
About launch quest, so you know 

1431
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:47,880
because I don't have so my 
brother moved away to Colorado 

1432
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:50,440
and he would have been the other
person I would have played this 

1433
01:18:50,440 --> 01:18:54,640
DS game with but so you guys 
also had multiplayer in there 

1434
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:56,580
and I guess would have 
originally been it had been 

1435
01:18:56,580 --> 01:18:59,520
Wi-Fi, but it sounds really cool
and I can't wait to try it 

1436
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:01,600
eventually cuz he never. 
Done it. 

1437
01:19:02,040 --> 01:19:03,920
Yeah, he owns this game in 
Colorado. 

1438
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:07,200
This is his DSI don't know how 
that's gonna work, but. 

1439
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:11,040
But at any rate, though, it adds
A wrinkle to the gameplay not 

1440
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:14,720
seen in single player mode, in 
which you get to summon your own

1441
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,400
clockwork enemies and send them 
at your opponent. 

1442
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:19,440
Right. 
Which, right, Jackie, doesn't 

1443
01:19:19,440 --> 01:19:22,560
sound fun. 
You get to you get to be the 

1444
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:25,080
Doctor Robotnik sending all the 
robots in. 

1445
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,920
Yeah, Yeah. 
So I was just wondering if you 

1446
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,640
were, if there's anything about 
that that you were, you know, 

1447
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,520
was worth speaking to. 
And I was curious like it came 

1448
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:36,680
someone like the boss. 
Characters, it came in late, OK,

1449
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:40,760
it was one of those things. 
It was a it was a stretch goal, 

1450
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:45,320
yeah. 
And they they they managed it. 

1451
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:50,200
We weren't, we kind of not 
expecting them to manage it and 

1452
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:54,840
they managed it. 
So again, you know, all hands, 

1453
01:19:55,080 --> 01:20:00,040
hands up for for for fifth sale 
for for getting that in the game

1454
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:02,840
when we didn't have an 
expectation that it would 

1455
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:04,960
actually get done. 
Yeah, well. 

1456
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:09,360
You know, that's my biggest joy 
con for this is that, you know, 

1457
01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:12,880
to play it the way that it was 
originally designed on the DS. 

1458
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:17,040
Like hopefully we get DS games 
on the Switch and hopefully they

1459
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:20,480
figure out some kind of stylist 
for the Switch to that can that 

1460
01:20:20,480 --> 01:20:23,080
can really bring this to light. 
Because if you can't tell just 

1461
01:20:23,080 --> 01:20:26,840
by how I'm talking about it, 
this game, it's got a lot going 

1462
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:29,400
under the hood or under the 
clamshell, however you wanna say

1463
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:32,720
it, and there's just a lot of 
really cool stuff about it. 

1464
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,680
Was there anything else you 
wanted to touch on before we 

1465
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:38,360
wrap it up and render the 
verdict, which seems pretty 

1466
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:42,240
obvious at this point? 
Give us the verdict. 

1467
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:45,240
Mike, you ready? 
Do I need to? 

1468
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:46,680
Am I going to be able to handle 
this? 

1469
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:48,200
Oh, you're going to be able to 
handle it. 

1470
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:50,920
Yeah. 
Guys, that brings us to the the 

1471
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:53,120
moment of truth. 
We've covered the joy pros, the 

1472
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:55,400
joy cons and every bit in 
between. 

1473
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:58,800
So now it's time to declare 
today's game as a Nintendo or a 

1474
01:20:58,800 --> 01:20:59,680
Nintendo. 
Don't. 

1475
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:01,440
It's a Nintendo. 
Come on. 

1476
01:21:03,600 --> 01:21:06,240
For sure. 
Like, like, you know, steal 

1477
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:09,240
yourself for the ending. 
Like prepare yourself 

1478
01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:13,040
emotionally for, you know, 
actually, yeah, I guess if you 

1479
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:16,280
are back because you skipped the
spoiler part, I won't I won't 

1480
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:20,360
say anything more. 
But wow, that alone was like, 

1481
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:22,120
that's that's that's pretty 
wild. 

1482
01:21:24,080 --> 01:21:26,360
So, Mike, ready to call? 
Game over for today. 

1483
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:30,720
I think so. 
OK, so as Andy once infamously 

1484
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:36,440
said, good news, it's over. 
There was a little. 

1485
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:38,960
My ass is coming. 
Yeah. 

1486
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:44,280
And so was Andy. 
I didn't know how to not say 

1487
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:45,840
that. 
That's an. 

1488
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:49,280
Inside your head, voice Jackie. 
Anyway, you're my student. 

1489
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:50,520
Name your grade, name your 
grade. 

1490
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,720
It's been an honor and a delight
to have you both with us today. 

1491
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:56,880
Jackie, before you get on out of
here, why don't you tell our 

1492
01:21:56,880 --> 01:21:59,120
listeners where they can find 
your stand up and anything else 

1493
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,400
you want to plug? 
All right, so I have two 

1494
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,040
podcasts, The Dork Forest, where
I interview people about what 

1495
01:22:04,040 --> 01:22:06,280
they love. 
Been doing it for 20 years. 

1496
01:22:06,280 --> 01:22:10,360
There's a little over 1000 
episodes and if you have a 

1497
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:13,440
favorite comic you could Google 
the words Dork Forest and the 

1498
01:22:13,440 --> 01:22:17,000
name of that comic. 
Odds are we have talked about 

1499
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:19,160
something. 
It might be beating with Janine 

1500
01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:22,160
Garofalo, might be Canadian 
history with Guy Branham. 

1501
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:23,920
You don't know. 
Anyway. 

1502
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:27,920
And then I have a stand up 
podcast with Laurie Kilbarton 

1503
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:31,720
called Jackie and Laurie Show. 
And I have a new album and 

1504
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:33,920
special called Altercation. 
So if you go to 

1505
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:37,560
jackiecation.com, too much info,
all the things, all the clips, 

1506
01:22:37,560 --> 01:22:40,680
see if you like my stand up, see
if you like my podcast and see 

1507
01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:41,840
if you want to come and see me 
live. 

1508
01:22:41,960 --> 01:22:44,120
Thanks a lot for having me on. 
It's been amazing. 

1509
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:45,400
We'll definitely link it in the 
show notes. 

1510
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:48,320
And the fun part about seeing 
her live, seeing why not she 

1511
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:51,160
makes it to the end of the show.
What does that mean? 

1512
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:54,800
She nearly fell, or she did fall
off the stage. 

1513
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:58,680
Oh, last night, you were there 
last night when I would that 

1514
01:22:58,880 --> 01:23:01,240
those, those kind of stages 
aren't my favorite stages. 

1515
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:03,640
Those pop up stages that and 
then they aren't pushed up 

1516
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,440
against the wall and so that I 
don't know where the ends are. 

1517
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:08,920
And because I have a depth 
perception problem. 

1518
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,120
And so I fell off and I I yeah, 
I heard. 

1519
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:13,720
Wow. 
It popped my arm. 

1520
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:17,280
It's it's all fun and games 
until until 911 is called. 

1521
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:19,320
It's exciting. 
Until right. 

1522
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:20,720
Until. 
And then she rolled a natural 

1523
01:23:20,720 --> 01:23:23,200
20. 
And then I didn't roll it after 

1524
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:25,360
20 and I gave it to Maria. 
What? 

1525
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:27,600
She. 
Can get out, yeah. 

1526
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:34,120
And no gears came out, so we're 
like, OK, she's human like Andy.

1527
01:23:34,120 --> 01:23:39,200
Anything you want to plug or? 
Yeah, so I have a podcast with 

1528
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:42,480
my one of my colleagues. 
So I teach game design at New 

1529
01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:46,280
York Film Academy and my 
colleague Shlomo Cher is a a 

1530
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:50,080
philosopher and an ethicist, and
he and I have a podcast called 

1531
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:54,760
The ethics of video Games. 
And while we were writing, while

1532
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:58,440
we were doing the podcast, he 
was fast writing this book, Play

1533
01:23:58,440 --> 01:24:01,320
nice The ethics of video Games, 
Shlomo Cher. 

1534
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:06,960
And so I want to plug his book 
for him next year. 

1535
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:10,800
About this time I should have 
several tabletop games available

1536
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:12,800
for people, but but I don't have
them right now. 

1537
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:14,760
So nothing to plug quite yet. 
Stay. 

1538
01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:16,480
Tuned. 
Stay tuned. 

1539
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:19,240
Sounds exciting. 
Sounds exciting guys. 

1540
01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:21,600
That all sounds northeast 
excellent. 

1541
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:23,360
Everyone. 
Join us next time when we are 

1542
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:26,640
celebrating the end of our 
triumphant 4th season with our 

1543
01:24:26,640 --> 01:24:30,480
annual 16th bit retrospective 
season finale. 

1544
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:32,720
We'll have games, we'll have 
cameos. 

1545
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:35,560
It's a good time, guaranteed. 
Also, don't forget to visit 

1546
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:39,040
www.theoldswitcharoo.com. 
There you can find links to our 

1547
01:24:39,040 --> 01:24:42,360
Spotify, Discord, YouTube, 
TikTok and all the social medias

1548
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:46,480
you can shake a joystick act Ash
joystick at fumbled it. 

1549
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,440
Big thanks to Crystal Fields for
our incredible intro song. 

1550
01:24:49,440 --> 01:24:52,640
And please, dear listener, don't
forget to like and subscribe. 

1551
01:24:52,760 --> 01:24:55,640
Every click means a lot and you 
mean a lot to us. 

1552
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,080
Until next time, this has been 
the old switcheroo. 

1553
01:24:58,080 --> 01:25:00,440
We've been talking gaming retro 
with Mike and Jamo. 

1554
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:03,080
I've been Mike. 
And I've been jamo game on 

1555
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:05,440
everyone. 
Yay. 

1556
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:21,240
Really quick, Jackie, because 
just I don't know if this will 

1557
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:24,400
fit into the conversation, but I
just wanted to give you a very 

1558
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:29,440
specific piece of praise. 
I was I was listening to your 

1559
01:25:29,440 --> 01:25:31,200
special. 
It's never going to be bread, 

1560
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:33,520
right? 
And you have this amazing joke 

1561
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:37,480
about Sarah Palin being like a 
Handmaid's Tale president or 

1562
01:25:37,480 --> 01:25:40,120
something like that, right? 
And you made and you're like, 

1563
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:41,480
oh, it's like a really obscure 
joke. 

1564
01:25:41,480 --> 01:25:44,320
And like, you know, it was 
because that was before the show

1565
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:46,680
had come out. 
Right, 2003. 

1566
01:25:46,960 --> 01:25:49,280
Right. 
We're required to have read the 

1567
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:52,320
book to get that joke. 
But now I, I, yeah. 

1568
01:25:52,920 --> 01:25:56,120
Now that the show is popular, no
knows who Sarah Palin is and the

1569
01:25:56,120 --> 01:26:01,160
bar is so much lower than so 
it's like the best joke that 

1570
01:26:01,160 --> 01:26:03,560
will. 
It will never work though, but 

1571
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:08,040
it looks so good. 
It works OK if I'm if I'm in 

1572
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:12,480
front of a relatively literate 
audience and I couldn't watch 

1573
01:26:12,480 --> 01:26:16,640
the show just because it was. 
I had read the book, I knew how 

1574
01:26:16,640 --> 01:26:18,480
it ended. 
I knew how it went. 

1575
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:20,840
I didn't approve of the book at 
the time. 

1576
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:22,240
It was the only thing in 
English. 

1577
01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:27,920
I was traveling across Europe in
1989 and I was like, why is this

1578
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:29,240
the only thing that's in 
English? 

1579
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:33,280
Because I don't want to read it 
that in Hungarian short stories,

1580
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:35,600
can you say the word cheerful in
Hungarian? 

1581
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:37,640
You can't. 
It doesn't exist it. 

1582
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:42,880
Hasn't cheerful. 
Hasn't made it over to Hungary 

1583
01:26:42,880 --> 01:26:46,440
yet, no. 
That since the 1952 invasion of 

1584
01:26:46,440 --> 01:26:50,200
the Soviet Union. 
Well, on that note.