S4E10: Donkey Kong -or- Gorilla Warfare

Unknown Speaker (0:00): I don't know where my Genesis could be. I haven't seen my Super Nintendo since 2003. That's alright.

Jaymo (0:28): We got a potential Donkey Kong kill screen coming up because it's time for the old switcheroo where we're talking gaming retro with Mike and J Mo. I'm Mike. And I'm J Mo. We're the often imitated, never emulated retro gaming podcast diving deep into the Nintendo classics catalog on Nintendo Switch online. Today, we are barreling our way over Donkey Kong on the NES and Donkey Kong on the Game Boy in an episode we are calling guerilla warfare.

Jaymo (0:53): If you like what you hear, don't forget to like, subscribe, and, of course, play along. Now, Mike, quick aside, I get a little cheap thrill out of covering Contra on our previous episode and calling this one guerilla warfare. But, Mike, you know what else gives me a sick thrill? No. Doing impressive and dexterous things with my eyes closed.

Jaymo (1:13): Please welcome to the show blindfolded speedrunner extraordinaire, Blazing Phoenix. How are doing this morning, Blaze?

Unknown Speaker (1:20): What's up, everyone? I'm doing great this morning. Most mornings, I am tired because of work, but I made sure to be well rested for, this morning. Even though I had work yesterday, I still took it easy to be ready for today. So I don't look like I'm also recording with my eyes closed.

Jaymo (1:38): Well, I find it funny you're, you know, trying to take it easy because you do the exact opposite a lot of the time. You have a truly impressive number of blindfolded speedruns and a variety of them. You got Tekken, Smash Brothers. I even saw you did a link to the past blindfolded using a pretty clever exploit. So curious.

Jaymo (1:56): You know, Mike's a big speedrunning fan. So as a blindfolded speedrunner, we all know music and sound cues are, like, a big thing. Right?

Unknown Speaker (2:05): Correct. Yes.

Unknown Speaker (2:06): But so do you have a signature Blazing Phoenix method? Like, are you visualizing it? Are you counting out the seconds? Or is that is that asking you to reveal your secret sauce?

BlazeingPhoenix (2:16): For me, I try to find the most simplistic approach. So it's what's called a normalization where you put yourself in a specific spot, and then no matter where you move from that spot, it should always work consistently. So if you know if I hold left, I'll hit this wall. And then if I hold straight up, I'll hit this wall. And then if it comes to points where that takes too long or where there aren't walls that are reliable, then it's more of beat counting, whether it's using the music from the game or just your own internal, I guess, metronome to count steps or distance and things like that.

BlazeingPhoenix (2:54): But for me, my first goal is to get consistent and then work on the speed afterwards.

Jaymo (2:59): Yeah. Mike, have you ever dabbled in in in watching blindfolded speedruns? I have a

Mike (3:05): little bit. Just in the extent they sort of show up with regular speedruns to some extent. So Punch Out has some insane blindfolded speedruns. I think Games Unquick did a 120 star run for Mario 64, and I think, like, each person did a star, and about four or five stars were blindfolded speedruns in that larger thing.

Jaymo (3:30): I I stunned. I'm stunned that this is a thing that exists, and I love the segue. Thank you for the segue. Blaise, congratulations. Game's done quick this year.

Jaymo (3:40): You did a twenty five minute blindfolded speedrun of the first half of Nintendo World Championships, which includes 78 levels spanning 13 different NES games, and you did this in front of the world stages. Tell us about that experience.

BlazeingPhoenix (3:55): Oh, I was extremely happy that I got to do it ever since I first saw I believe my first a g q a g d q that I watched was a g d q twenty thirteen. At that point, I had done a couple games speedrun, but more for fun to see how fast I could do it. But then when I saw a huge community coming together to one space and doing a run after run after run while raising money for charity, I was like, I hope one day I could participate in that. And while traveling is more of an issue for me, the fact that they've done these hot fixes for online events and other notable events where they allow, online speedrunnings, I saw this as a great opportunity for me to participate. And since I was, attempting to work my way up in the blindfolded community by doing a variety of games and a few niche games that I really wanted to get good at, I saw this as, like, two worlds colliding of a new interest of speedrunning and my potential chance to be on the GDQ channel.

BlazeingPhoenix (4:54): So it was my first marathon that I got to participate in, my first GDQ type event to get in. And while it wasn't the in person experience that I thought of thirteen years ago, to me, this still counts as a major achievement for me, and I was very excited to participate despite the the first minute of the run not going as well as I planned, but the rest of it went smooth.

Jaymo (5:15): I was gonna say, let's not be too hard on yourself. Like, that was a good run. And even the commentators are like, that's a good time for 70 so but but, dude okay. I I have to ask because I was telling my wife about this episode this morning. She's like, why would he do that to himself?

Jaymo (5:29): What motivates you to do this insane feat of skill and memorization and just and and and keeping a level ahead? Like like, what what drives you?

BlazeingPhoenix (5:38): I'd say half of it was the thought of, can I do that myself? As well as the thought of how cool it'd be to improve my, I guess, video game knowledge to do it. Because that's what got me into speedrunning in to begin with was how fast can I do this as a a challenge? I've already beat the game. The the first game that I ever speedrun, like, officially would be the original Legend of Zelda for NES.

BlazeingPhoenix (6:03): I did a 100% category before there was an official rule for us. I actually collected a little extra stuff than what's in the official rule. But then I I was like, okay. I've 100% it. I've done the second quest.

BlazeingPhoenix (6:15): I've done the three heart challenge. What can I do next? Ah, speedrunning. And then as I did more and more speedruns for different games as a means to challenge myself and to expand my knowledge on those games, I came across the AGDQ 20 fifteen with Runner Guy doing child dungeons of Ocarina of Time blindfolded. And when I saw that that someone could do Ocarina at least the first half of Ocarina of Time blindfolded, I was just like, that's incredible.

BlazeingPhoenix (6:44): I didn't think a three d adventure game like that would be doable. So at that time, I was doing Kingdom Hearts in the Kingdom Hearts video game community. Can Kingdom Hearts be doable? And after dabbling with it, I saw that it was too hard for me, and I I made a joke. Oh, I'll just wait till someone else does it.

BlazeingPhoenix (7:01): If no one else does it, then maybe Kingdom Hearts is impossible. And then four years later, Bubsya beats Kingdom Hearts blindfolded. I was like, oh, crud. It is doable, and now I kinda wanna see if I can do it and if I can do it faster because I have the experience. And it's just it's one of those that it's the question of can I do it?

BlazeingPhoenix (7:18): And then I look at certain games. I'm like, I bet I bet that would be doable. And since no one else is doing that, I'm curious to know how fast it can be done. So why not better than me do it if I can?

Unknown Speaker (7:30): Who else? Who else but the Blazing Phoenix?

Unknown Speaker (7:33): So then so then was Kingdom Hearts one that you your first one that you did as a blindfolded one? Or was it

BlazeingPhoenix (7:39): Yes. I don't recommend a big three d RPG game such as Kingdom Hearts to be someone's first, but it was my first because it was the game that I had the most experience with as I had the most fun with it speedrunning despite it being the longest game I speedrun. The community was super kind and very, very friendly with each other to where I even got to meet one of the the runners in person since he lived in the same state as me. And it just was that game while it wasn't my favorite game. It was the game that I I feel the most happy with speedrunning.

BlazeingPhoenix (8:11): So I was like, I have the knowledge with it. I'm just gonna start. And had the the blueprints of here's his simp strategies to get through it. Now can I take my speedrunner mind and make it faster? And I routed up to the first 80% of the game before I kinda burnt myself out and got interested in other games blindfolded, and I still I still need to finish finishing Kingdom Hearts blindfolded because I got all the way up to the last two worlds routing wise.

Unknown Speaker (8:40): My god.

BlazeingPhoenix (8:42): Nintendo World Championships just caught my attention more because it was far easier to practice. Kingdom Hearts being on the PS four or PS five for me, so I have to play on a TV at home. And if someone else wants the TV, I lose time on practice. If I want to practice section, I have to go from save point to save point, which could be from three minutes apart from one section to another to ten minutes. Whereas Nintendo World Championship, I can play on the go on my Switch.

BlazeingPhoenix (9:11): I could practice at work. Most of the levels are less than thirty seconds, so I can just crank out practice, practice, practice. And it was just I think because it was easier and more viable for me to practice and learn, and it was the game that technically hadn't been done blindfolded before, it just caught my attention way way easier than Kingdom Hearts did.

Mike (9:32): Yeah. How long of a speedrun was that on on Kingdom Hearts? I just barely started playing that, and that is like a lot of game. Mhmm.

BlazeingPhoenix (9:41): Tip I think casually, if you're watching all the cut scenes and collecting treasure chests, Dalmatians, all that, and just beating it first time playthrough is typically thirty to forty hours. But speedrunners on the most recent releases of PS five, Xbox, and PC, it typically takes about two hours or less than one hour if you take load times away. And Bubzia was able to beat it in seven hours and fifty six minutes, I believe. But my goal and from my routing, I I could see it being dropped down to six and maybe even under five hours.

Unknown Speaker (10:19): My god. You monster. That is amazing. Well, guys, I think we should get down to it for today's games. Ready to play chimps and ladders?

Jaymo (10:29): Yep. Okay. So let's get started with Donkey Kong on the NES released in 1986. As described on Nintendo classics, Donkey Kong has kidnapped Pauline, and it's up to Mario, the fearless carpenter, to come to their rescue. Throwing fate to the wind, Mario tries desperately to climb the labyrinth of structural beams from the top of which Donkey Kong taunts him.

Jaymo (10:57): Help our hero ascend the metal structure by dodging an assortment of fireballs, steel beams, and exploding barrels. The angry ape hurls at him. Prepare yourself for a never ending adventure as Donkey Kong takes Pauline away to the next level every time Mario gets to the top. Based on the arcade game of the same name, this classic will keep hardcore and casual gamers entertained for hours. So let's go ahead and take a look at the box art since that was off of people's first impressions.

Jaymo (11:22): You have the box art in the style of the game's graphics, which is Ebb Simpson would say was the style at the time. You got Donkey Kong up top, rolling barrels as Mario or jump man, as some may have called him. Jumpman is over a barrel on the level below. Mike, we like this box art?

Unknown Speaker (11:37): I think so. It it gives you a fairly good idea of what what you're gonna be dealing with.

Unknown Speaker (11:41): Yeah. I I did I did think okay. So so, Blaze, did you have this game as a younger man?

BlazeingPhoenix (11:47): Depends on what you mean by younger. Yeah. I didn't all the way up until, I'd say, maybe 13 or 14 years old. My dad saw an Atari on eBay with a select few games such as Donkey Kong, and he bought that. So I'd say more teenage is when I first experienced Donkey Kong on the Atari system.

BlazeingPhoenix (12:08): And then after trying the game out with the the very hard to use controller, because I was still programmed with the Wii and PlayStation three controllers, going from that to a one analog, one button stiff controller was a a unique experience. But we eventually got it on the Wii Virtual Console, I think, that same year or the year after. And that was the NES version, which was a little bit easier and more fun to play, in my opinion, than the Atari version.

Jaymo (12:37): That's so funny because Mike and I grew up with, like, the just D pad controllers of, like, the Sega Genesis or, like, Mike had the the paddle for, like, his Atari. And so then going from just the you know, going from that to joysticks was, like, this adjustment period, but it never occurred to me that people who grew up with the better controllers and have to, like, adjust backwards and kinda retrofit it into their play style. I just wanted to note, you know, with the cover, I do think it's interesting that Mario has his kind of light blue and blue color scheme, which is only ever seen in the Super Mario Brothers box art. So wouldn't be surprised if the same person designed both. So I'm so excited to get into the behind the scenes trivia with this one because we've been teasing it since season one, Mike.

Jaymo (13:21): I don't know if you remember that, but we've referred to the Donkey Kong controversy a number of times. So did you guys know that the first Donkey Kong arcade cabinets were actually a different game entirely? Have you heard about this?

BlazeingPhoenix (13:35): As in the original inspiration before they did unique characters?

Unknown Speaker (13:39): I know what you're referring to, and I'm talking about the actual machines themselves were a game of Radar Scope.

Unknown Speaker (13:44): Yes. I have heard of that story.

Jaymo (13:46): So they Nintendo built thousands of these, and they were not selling at all. And so according to the game historian David Chef, the acting president of Nintendo of America begged his father-in-law and Nintendo CEO, Hiroshi Yamauchi, to develop a new game that would be installed in these RadarScope cabinets. So gut the old machines and put something new so we can at least not eat the hard work or the actual, you know, cost of building the cabinets. As detailed on the gaming news site Critical Hit, Nintendo All Star Shigeru Miyamoto initially designed what kind of game, Blaze?

BlazeingPhoenix (14:21): Donkey Kong AO Right. Platform, I guess, high score jumping love triangle game.

Jaymo (14:29): Which was originally based on Popeye. Mike, did you know this?

Unknown Speaker (14:33): I think I have her heard this part.

Jaymo (14:37): Yeah. It was based around the setting of the cartoon short, a dream walking, in which damsel in distress olive oil sleepwalks her way onto a high rise construction site. But when a licensing deal for the Popeye brand fell through, they shifted the character designs of Popeye, Olive Oil, and Bluto into Mario, Pauline, and Donkey Kong respectively. The latter of which was named because it roughly translates to stubborn gorilla. So I was always like, what's the donkey part?

Jaymo (15:02): I never really got that. Like, there's nothing really horse like about him. But that same name would again threaten to plunge Nintendo into financial peril when Universal Studios took them to court in 1983 over the similarities in likeness between DK and King Kong. According to legal documentarian Ryan Moore, the court case was ultimately won by Nintendo's attorney John Kirby junior, who astutely cited Universal's own legal defense from 1975 when they successfully sued RKO Pictures over the rights to remake King Kong without paying royalties. The argument was that since the first appearance of King Kong was a novelization of the as of yet to be released movie and the publisher never renewed the copyrights for the novel.

Jaymo (15:48): Essentially, anyone can make King Kong stuff if they just claim that it's based on the novel and not the movie. Mike, what do think? But pretty clever. Right?

Unknown Speaker (15:55): It is. And it does get into that interesting thing of that you have a lot of stuff that is public domain, but only parts of it. Mhmm. Like, I think

Unknown Speaker (16:03): Mhmm.

Mike (16:04): There's certain habits of Sherlock Holmes that are still not in the public domain, but other parts that are.

Jaymo (16:12): Oh, like the elementary major Watson is still copyrighted or something?

Mike (16:16): I mean, that that thing's not even a thing that he that he says. I I wanna say, I think his might be his opium addiction or something. There's some stuff that's, like, late Sherlock Holmes that is you cannot do because it's in the later stuff. You get the same same kind of thing of as, like, Disney stuffs entering public domain where it's like, yeah, the early version is now public domain. Or, actually, Popeye just hit public domain, but you have to do you can only do, like, the first year of Popeye, which is not what anyone what most people recognize.

Unknown Speaker (16:48): Popeye went through a lot of changes, did he?

Mike (16:51): Yeah. I'm gonna even say I think because the spinach thing, I thought, was like a war edition.

Unknown Speaker (16:58): Woah. Oh, okay. Okay. Eat your canned spinach. Right?

Unknown Speaker (17:02): Because that was a big thing during the war was canning vegetables. What? Look at you, Mike. You're always teaching me something. I love that about you.

Jaymo (17:08): So, Blaze, John Kirby, their lawyer, kinda saved Nintendo from financial ruin. So do you know what Nintendo's gift was to John Kirby?

BlazeingPhoenix (17:16): I believe that's what Kirby, the pink gumball looking character gets his name in the Kirby series created by Sakurai himself, a legend.

Jaymo (17:26): Yeah. And here's the wild thing, though. I knew that. I think most people know that. But Nintendo also gifted him a sailboat named Donkey Kong.

Jaymo (17:34): And in, I think, a real beautiful, real kind of a hole move just to brag that they won. They also gave John Kirby exclusive rights to name sailboats Donkey Kong. Like, nobody else can name their sailboat Donkey Kong. I don't even know how that works. I don't know how you, like, reserve that legally, but I just love that.

Jaymo (17:53): So before we get into the joy pros and joy cons of Donkey Kong, let's go over our history of this game. Mike, can we start with you?

Mike (18:01): Yeah. So I think I've never played it in this specific form in terms of the NES. This has to have been a thing that I have played the arcade version of to at least some extent, but I don't think it's it was ever one of the ones that I played much of.

Jaymo (18:19): Okay. And this game, if you didn't hear from the description, it cycles the same levels over and over again. So are we considering beating the game just doing one cycle?

Unknown Speaker (18:29): I I think we are because I think I mean, Playa's speed run is that. So Yeah. That's what I'm gonna go with.

Unknown Speaker (18:37): To Mike, Ninten, did you beat Donkey Kong? Yes. You ninten did. Ninten. I'm in computer.

Mike (18:48): Congratulations. In much more time than he did, and I had eyes to use for this.

Jaymo (18:55): Yep. So let let's get into that one. So, Blaze, I I'm led to believe you are the only person in the world who's ever beaten this game blindfolded.

BlazeingPhoenix (19:05): Yes. To cycle back to your question real quick of what counts as beating it, I based it off of what the speedruns.com leaderboard was just because I figured that would be a more official means, they just counted as game a, loop one, beat the first three levels that's in it before it loops back. Whereas if you go to the speedrun.com arcade speedrun, the main category they have is reach the kill screen on the arcade. So that I was not gonna do blindfolded, but since there was an official category for the NES version of beat the first loop, I was like, okay. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (19:42): That that I should be able to do.

Unknown Speaker (19:45): Can you touch on because you just mentioned mentioned the kill screen.

Unknown Speaker (19:48): Mhmm.

Unknown Speaker (19:48): Can you sort of give an explanation of what that is?

BlazeingPhoenix (19:51): So a common thing that occurs with a lot of arcade games is at some point, because of their their memory going in bits and going up to, I believe, values of two fifty five, which starts at zero so zero to computers, it's r one all the way to two fifty five, which is their two fifty six, because how binary works of eights, ones, and zeros. Once a certain value overflows or reaches its cap, it tends to cause problem with how the game functions. And so for Donkey Kong, there's a bonus score that you get when you beat the level. The faster you beat it, the higher bonus score. But that bonus score is actually a timer that once it hits zero, it kills Jumpman.

BlazeingPhoenix (20:33): And the game was designed to where the more levels you play, the higher the bonus at the cost of everything functioning faster. Barrels are thrown faster, fires move faster, etcetera. But at some point, the the value or algorithm that they use to determine what the bonus score is, it reaches a cap and overflows. And instead of going let's say the the max number was a 100,000, the computer doesn't know what 101 is or 100,001. So the overflow actually restarts all the way back to 101 minus 100,000, which would then be one.

BlazeingPhoenix (21:14): And so the bonus score, once it hit hits a certain ceiling, it actually underflow or overflows back to, I think it's like 800. And Jumpman does not have enough time to finish the stage in that amount of time. So players call that the kill screen as once you hit that level, I think it's loop 21 on the arcade. Loop 21 level one, you just don't have enough time to reach the the top to continue the game except for a glitch that people found very recently to get past that screen. But then through TAS, they found that it still will be a kill screen at some point, and the game has a new kill screen only if you're doing glitches and TAS.

BlazeingPhoenix (21:56): But that's the gist of it, is that the game is old, and so it can't math at certain point, and then it messes up.

Jaymo (22:05): So we we we've covered that you've beaten this game in a historic way. And I think everyone's favorite part of that YouTube video, we'll link it in the show notes, is your friend at work being like, I don't care if I'm a minute over my lunch break. I'm so glad I stayed to watch this. Did your friend get in trouble for being late from his lunch break?

BlazeingPhoenix (22:23): As far as I'm aware, no. And he showed up, I think, fifteen, twenty minutes after I started my lunch, and he just saw me with a blindfold playing the game. Because I normally don't do it at work. Or if I do practice, I just close my eyes to try to not draw attention towards me. But I had just done the three individual levels on Nintendo World Championship, and I thought, oh, if I can do it on this game, can I do it on the actual NES title?

BlazeingPhoenix (22:52): And when I looked up online, I couldn't back to your other question that I completely forgot to answer. As far as I could find from thirty plus minutes of looking things up, I did not find a single video of anyone else or even a mention of anyone else doing the three levels on NES or even the four levels on arcade blindfolded. The only exception kinda is there's another blindfolded speedrunner who did the first level NES blindfolded both without the glitch that I did use and with the glitch, but he never did the second or third level. So I would give him the credit of beating the first level blindfolded legitly and with the glitch. And then I would give myself the credit as far as I can find of doing all three levels in one sitting, therefore beating the game blindfolded.

BlazeingPhoenix (23:41): And as far as I'm aware, still the only one who's done it blindfolded, probably because it's not as known as many other games.

Unknown Speaker (23:47): So so, Mike, this is this is arguably in fact, I don't think it's it's definitively the most impressive Nintendo dig we've ever had on our show.

Unknown Speaker (23:55): Right? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (23:56): So I couldn't just play the sound effect normally. So I'm gonna challenge myself to play the sound effect without looking. I'm gonna close my eyes and try to do the three button sequence to trigger it. Let's see what I can do. Ready?

Unknown Speaker (24:08): Blaze, you gotta believe me. Here we go. I did it, Blaze. I did it. Just as impressive as what you accomplished, I'm sure.

Jaymo (24:21): And I I I intended also beat this game. So let's let's jump right into a quick sequence that we're gonna call high score and forty years ago inspired by our friends at the Arcadia Algae podcast. We'd like to see who can get the highest score on a single hypothetical quarter. Of course, the NES doesn't use quarters, but, you know, just with your run of lives here, because there's no continues in this game. Mike, did you grab a high score for us to compare?

Unknown Speaker (24:46): I grabbed a score. I'm not gonna say high is the right adjective for it.

Jaymo (24:49): Okay. Listen, though. You've said that before and then beaten my score. So just what you got?

Mike (24:55): I have got 16,500. 16,500.

Jaymo (25:00): Okay. I wanna go next because I'm gonna assume it's less than Blaze, but he also wasn't really told about this high score competition that far in advance. And I don't know if it's harder for him to play this game while looking. I don't know how blind speedrunners work, but I did three loops, and then on the fourth one was taken out by one of those damn bouncing springs. So I got 67,200.

Jaymo (25:22): Blaze?

BlazeingPhoenix (25:23): Yeah. I I will attest that it's significantly easier with my eyes than with that.

Unknown Speaker (25:29): Okay.

BlazeingPhoenix (25:30): And with the the bit of time I used yesterday and this morning and because I have the experience with the game, probably because of blindfolded, I got six loops in and died finally on six dash two to the top spring with a final score of 136,900.

Unknown Speaker (25:48): Okay. I don't know why I thought I had a chance against you, big guy. That's crazy. Six loops in end of spring. I do feel validated, though.

Jaymo (25:55): The spring's what took you out because, gosh

Unknown Speaker (25:57): It was super fast on the sixth loop, and I got to the top ladder, but I guess I mistimed it slightly.

Jaymo (26:03): I had this weird dream of actually getting to the kill screen because as everybody knows who listens to this show, I do rewind to cheat. But, apparently, the kill screen on the NES is way later. You gotta play over a 100 loops.

Unknown Speaker (26:14): I actually didn't know that.

Unknown Speaker (26:15): Yeah. Yeah. And then and some party was like, well, if I do 10 a day, then I just I got busy. Okay. So you're you're an expert at Donkey Kong Blaze.

Jaymo (26:25): Can you lead us on a discussion of the Joy Pros? I assume you like this game to some extent.

BlazeingPhoenix (26:31): Yes. While it was weird when my dad had me try it on the Atari, when I tried the virtual console on the Wii, I saw that, oh, this I can see why this game is so appealing for an arcade, especially at a time where arcades were heavy with space invader type. You're the spaceship or a rocket or gun shooting stuff. Now you're this, I guess, carpenter Yeah. Going up against a a gorilla.

BlazeingPhoenix (26:59): And I I think the the big appeal is the fact that another issue with a lot of older Atari games is they the levels looked very similar, whereas Donkey Kong at least had multiple levels that could change its appearance. So while Pac Man, I would still say, is the reigning king of arcades, that was probably the biggest criticism. Pac Man is it was the same maze over and over and over and over until somebody else made missus Pac Man, which was a whole a whole thing with Van Dyne and Co. But Donkey Kong, the arcade version had four unique levels. And due to memory limitation on the NES, they can only keep three of those four levels, but it's still three unique levels that you get to play versus the same looking level over and over and over.

BlazeingPhoenix (27:45): So and the I believe this is the very first video game ever where a character can jump over an obstacle. So that was a a new mechanic introduced to the video game world versus let me blast this rock or blast this alien.

Jaymo (28:00): Yeah. I was I was reading about this. There were other games that had jumps, but it was like frog games and horse games. And you kinda gotta give this game its flowers because it's the first example of a two d platformer where jumping is a way to get around enemies and avoid obstacles. And you think like, oh, okay.

Jaymo (28:16): I'm sure video games would have gotten there eventually. But then I was like, how often do we jump to avoid obstacles in real life? Like, it's not this natural thing, but it's such it's it's such a defining part of video games from this moment up until 2026. You know what I mean? Like, your character has to be able to jump.

Jaymo (28:33): So it's kind of crazy to think about this game sort of inventing that. I like the tension build. I like the, you know, climbing up and your your time to react to Donkey Kong is getting shorter because there's less and less runway between you and him. Mhmm. So as you get to those top two levels and you're about to reach him, you your heart starts kinda beating a little bit faster.

Jaymo (28:57): And it's funny to me, before playing for this podcast, I don't think I'd ever seen the end of the game. And it's like, it's it's you know, for the NES version, 33% of the entire game, and for the arcade, it's 25%. But the I didn't know how to kill Donkey Kong at first. I was like, what do I do? Oh, are those ribbons?

Jaymo (29:12): Oh, that's pretty cool. So I really liked the storytelling of the setting and kind of imagining yourself on the side of this, like, skyscraper. Just a black background, but I think, you know, you can go a lot with your imagination. And I think this game kind of inspires that. Mike, what do you

Unknown Speaker (29:28): like about it? Compared to a lot of these other games, this actually feels like stuff progresses.

Unknown Speaker (29:33): Okay.

Mike (29:33): I think just that is that thing that, like, there is a and now it changes and something else happens compared to compared to how so many of these just sort of cycle through a puzzle style, a level style. Like, this feels like how I mean, you reach conclusion quickly and then you repeat, but, like, there's some element of an arc there.

Jaymo (29:51): Yeah. There's some variety too. And also, just the such iconic sights and sounds like that. Grabbing the hammer, the, you know, it's like it just that's timeless. And then I I remember I popped off in the first Smash Brothers game when you grab the hammer, and it was the same music.

Unknown Speaker (30:10): And, you know, and there's some cute animations, like, when you do defeat Donkey Kong, it kinda hovers in the air for a second, Looney Tunes style. Mhmm. So it's just really special to look at and to see. Blaze, was there anything else you liked about this game?

BlazeingPhoenix (30:23): I think another thing about, like, in what Mike was saying was the variety of stuff. So you can have the objective of let's beat this level fast so I can get the high bonus. But if we're wanting a high score, it might be beneficial to maybe intentionally put myself in danger to jump over barrels. Or let's grab the hammer and see if I can have good luck and hit a lot of barrels because each barrel's worth 500 points. And so if you hit, like, four or five barrels with both hammers on the first level, now you get a lot of points at the cost of putting yourself in danger, grabbing the hammer, and putting yourself in danger of attacking the barrels.

BlazeingPhoenix (30:59): Hope that you don't put yourself in danger when the hammer ends and then you get hit. And so it becomes a very intense game in the first level. The second level feels more timing based of jumping on the moving platforms, avoiding the springs. The third is like a cops and robber chase of the four fires trying to attack you while you're taking out the eight rivets. And then a a quick side note because you mentioned the hammer, another instance of me being younger working backwards.

BlazeingPhoenix (31:26): I played Smash 64 and Smash Melee before Donkey Kong, and so I was very aware of the hammer item. And so then when I got to play the Atari and then later the NES version on Wii Virtual Console collecting the hammer, I'm like, oh, this is where the sound effect comes from. And that glee of I know this hammer from Smash Brothers, and now I get to see the origins of it was probably a unique experience that probably not everyone gets to do if they play Donkey Kong then Smash. I did Smash and then Donkey Kong.

Jaymo (31:55): Yeah. Mike's had this experience with the podcast where it's like the Captain America, I understood that reference, but it's backwards. Like, now you get the newer reference because now you finally get exposed to the old one. So blind speedrunning, it has to be an exercise in just frustration and just over patience. Right?

Jaymo (32:14): So there's gotta be things you just hate about this game, right, having, you know, kinda gone up against it for so many hours.

BlazeingPhoenix (32:21): The first level because the, I guess, RNG with the barrels, I kinda felt the need to abuse a glitch. I'm not much of a glitch person. Typically, it's glitchless. But then the blindfolded world, like you brought up with A Link to the Past, I'm probably not gonna beat the entirety of Link to the Past the normal way, but there's a glitch to beat the game much easier. So I'm gonna do that just for fun.

BlazeingPhoenix (32:43): Donkey Kong, I can technically try to go for good luck to beat it normally without the glitch, but I just wanted to be the first person to beat it. So I just used the best arsenal, which is using a glitch to beat the first level. The second level's fine. There's a fireball in the middle that tends to be RNG against me. But I have a method that typically works, I'd say, over 80% of the time.

BlazeingPhoenix (33:08): So I don't worry about that level as much. That's more on me to complete it. And then finally, that third level, that's where most of my resets happen. Granted, if I can get to that third level with all three lives, there's obviously the optimal chance of me beating it blindfolded. But because it starts with one fireball enemy and eventually works its way to four, and they kinda have, like, this Pac Man ghost effect where or Dark Notes effect from Link's Legend of Zelda one.

BlazeingPhoenix (33:35): Half the time, they wanna go towards you. The other half, they wanna go away from you, but I I think it's probably more than half towards you. So they slowly come towards you, and it's different what their paths will be each time. And so blindfolded, I don't know what path they're gonna take, So I'm just gonna pick the fastest path to get off eight rivets and just hope that I don't run into one of those fireballs. And I think on my lunch break when I first did it, it took me thirty to forty minutes before I finally beat it blindfolded once because of those fireballs.

BlazeingPhoenix (34:04): And then if you watch my livestreams afterwards, it's still about every ten to forty minutes, I might get one or two completed runs and almost all of them died at level three.

Jaymo (34:14): But so in your mind, that randomness because, like, I I was rewatching scenes from King of Kong, A Fistful of Quarters. And, you know, when the the the Donkey Kong competitor is trying to get the kill screen, the the the crowd is talking about how this game can be random, and that's what makes it a tough speedrun and a tough but so does that make the game worse in your mind or better? Because to me, I feel like that adds a little sense of danger that serves the story of the game.

BlazeingPhoenix (34:41): For a high score base game, I think it makes it interesting, and the better player, I think, will overall get the high score despite the RNG. So I think it shows a good skill good skill level better than planned. So then the better player who's getting the higher score is knowledge enough to adapt to whatever is thrown their way to advance. So I find, site wise, the skill level is impressive. Blindfolded, knowing that there's RNG, I find some level of impressiveness of doing it because of the RNG.

BlazeingPhoenix (35:12): But at the end of the day, I think I'm still doing the same path over and over and just throwing darts at a dartboard from far away until one sticks. And so blindfolded, one of those that I kind of wish there was less RNG for more consistency. But being able to do it despite of the RNG, I think, makes it more impressive. So it's both a pro and a con at the same time.

Jaymo (35:35): Mike, you you you really bashed your head against a lot of, you know, older games and kind of been frustrated in the past. What do you dislike about Donkey Kong?

Mike (35:43): Honestly, I think its greatest limitation is that or for me, it feels like once you've gotten through those first three levels, like, you've done it, and then the repeat is just there's not as much of a drive for me, I think, because it's like, okay. This feels like it is done, and now we're just redoing it.

Jaymo (36:01): The shine kinda wears off quickly. Am I the only one who low key hates level two, though? Like, the the because first of all, I I really feel like so to Mario, at points in this game doesn't feel like Mario because if he jumps down from too high, he'll get killed by the fall. But it's, like, it's too he can survive two Marios worth of a drop. And that seems not enough Mario.

Jaymo (36:27): It's like, I'm a short guy, so I don't think if I fell from 12 feet, I'd die. I might be hurt. You know? I might be stunned like we see in the next game. But, like, did did he feel a little too fragile with jumping down from a to a platform below?

Unknown Speaker (36:41): Did you guys have a lot of frustrating deaths that way?

Unknown Speaker (36:44): Yes.

Mike (36:46): Only a couple, but it I feel both like I've dealt with other games that have done that. Honestly, I can't remember for this or just otherwise, it where was like, okay. That apparently is too much of a fall. Yeah. The part that I found more frustrating, this come up again again when we get to game two, is and I've had we've I have in Mappy Land that I had as We're like, you just barely kinda go off the edge, and you have no momentum really or control.

Mike (37:12): And it's like, and I'm just falling down. And it's like, there's a small gap. Why can't I not just have the momentum over to go over to a platform?

Jaymo (37:21): Yeah. It doesn't it doesn't really match the kinetic movement of actual objects in space. And and is there any way in level two to land on the bottom level and not die? I swear, like, I feel like if I touch that bottom girder, I just die, which is also kinda weird storytelling. I don't know.

Jaymo (37:36): I just don't vibe with level two. Oh, and the spring. The spring. So Blaze hates them. I hate them, I assume.

Jaymo (37:43): Who's throwing the springs in level two? Because Donkey Kong's just standing there, and they're being chucked from off screen. Like, is that the tower collapsing collapsing and and that's that's pieces of rubble, or am I missing something?

Unknown Speaker (37:54): I'm just gonna say it's probably Donkey Kong junior.

Unknown Speaker (37:56): There you go.

Unknown Speaker (37:57): Whenever you notice something like that, just presume a wizard did it.

Jaymo (38:00): There you go. Wizard did it. So let's before we go on to our second game, I wanna do a quick comparison, which we call Nintendis or DAT because the arcade original is available for $7.99 via arcade archives, and it has some things this the NES version does not. First of all, it has the actual second level that, as Blaise said, they had to remove for memory reasons, the cement factory, which is has a conveyor belt mechanic that's completely missing from the NES. And it also has the opening cut scene where Donkey Kong climbs up the tower and jumps up and down and makes the girders get their signature tilted look and breaks the ladders.

Jaymo (38:37): So I feel like there's some storytelling. But that being said, I purchased this just so I could compare them. The NES version sounds better to me. Like, the the the old arcade soundboard of the original Donkey Kong, it's kind of muted. And I think that the sprites are a bit crisper on the NES.

Jaymo (38:55): So being that you get it with Nintendo classics and you can rewind, I would go with the Nintendo version over the arcade original. Blaze, do you have a do have an opinion?

BlazeingPhoenix (39:05): I have never played the arcade version, but from what I've seen because of how famous the game is, while I do agree that the sound does sound worse slightly worse, it's kinda like from a Super Nintendo to a Game Boy Advance is there's a notable difference in audio. Yeah. I do like that there's another level. I believe the levels actually function different on the arcade. I don't think it's just one, two, three, four loop.

BlazeingPhoenix (39:27): I think it's more of a one, two, then one, two, three, one, two, three, four. So you get more of a buildup of is they're gonna introduce another level for me. And they actually have slightly more visual details on certain spots that the NES doesn't that I didn't even realize until recently because I played a lot more of it with and without my eyes. I noticed that the arcade had, like, I believe on the 100 meters, Donkey Kong at the top. Underneath them, it has, like, two lines coming off the girder, which the NES version doesn't have.

BlazeingPhoenix (40:01): In between levels, they show you 25 meter, 50 meter, 75 meter, a 100 meter, which the NES doesn't have. It has the intro cut scene, you said. So audio wise and maybe some fuzziness in the visuals can hurt the arcade. I do think because it feels like the more full package and the more arcade authentic experience, I would rather I think it'd be cool if I could have and pick the arcade over the NES version.

Unknown Speaker (40:30): Well, so you have a Switch. Are you are you gonna download it for $8 now that you know that's a thing?

Unknown Speaker (40:34): I'll consider it.

Jaymo (40:35): Okay. A Nintendo considered. Mike, any opinion on arcade versus NES?

Mike (40:40): I think NES covers it. I I though I will use this opportunity to briefly mention a weird thing. I thought about the manual that goes with NES is this is the only time I think I've seen something describe the controls the way this does is, like, for a butt for the a button, it just says, he jumps. And it's this odd thing where it's like, no. You're not jumping.

Mike (41:04): He's jumping. Yeah. And we're gonna specify he's jumping. It's this weird bit that I don't recall anything else doing, and it almost it almost feels just like they're not they haven't really gotten the hang of, you know, is the player the character or not.

Jaymo (41:19): Yeah. That's that's an interesting separation. They're changing they're changing the sentence from a declarative or, usually, it's an imperative sentence. It's jump. Jump.

Jaymo (41:29): You right? Wow. That's that's a cool Mike, I'm glad you read the manuals. That's really interesting. Just to and and we talked about how, like, this game was a shift in video games.

Jaymo (41:39): Like, Blaze had said, like, you know, people were used to space invaders and kinda space shooty games, and that's what RadarSculpt was. RadarSculpt did not sell because even though technologically impressive, it was another space themed shooter. And so this one just had that extra bit of cartoony character that changed the industry. So then let's move on to the similarly titled, but drastically different second game for today, Donkey Kong on the Game Boy released in 1994. As described on Nintendo classics, Donkey Kong is back, and Mario is in hot pursuit.

Jaymo (42:15): Donkey Kong kidnapped the beautiful Pauline and ran away. To save her, Mario has no choice but to pursue him, but an entirely new quest awaits Mario beyond the first few stages, which will be familiar to Donkey Kong veterans. Hunt down Donkey unless you play it blindfolded, I guess. Hunt down Donkey Kong as he escapes big city, travels via ship, and treks through jungle desert and rocky valley along his way. Mario will have to perform backflips and rope spins to overcome the obstacles in his path, moving jump stands and ladders to create a path to his goal.

Jaymo (42:45): Will Mario be able to clear over 100 stages to finally capture Donkey Kong and save Pauline? Quick look at the box art here. Cartoonish comic book style illustration of Donkey Kong carrying Pauline away as Donkey Kong junior swings lovingly from his arm, and Mario gives chase wielding a hammer. Blaze, any feelings about the Game Boy cover?

BlazeingPhoenix (43:07): The biggest thing that stood out to me first is the fact that Pon Lee now has her modern look of a brunette color hair whereas the original Donkey Kong shoe is a blonde.

Unknown Speaker (43:17): Yeah.

BlazeingPhoenix (43:17): And so I I like that as well as the fact that now Donkey Kong Junior, who was introduced after Donkey Kong, seems to be front of this as well, hanging onto Donkey Kong's arm, looking at Mario's kinda like taunting him. So it it's showing I I like that there's a history that's building with each cover that they keep making for the Donkey Kong games.

Jaymo (43:38): Yeah. I didn't think about it. But so this was the first game where Donkey Kong had his signature red tie with the DK, which apparently is supposed to show he's extra stubborn. I I I'm assuming that's, like, kind of a businessman stereotype. I that's my assumption.

Unknown Speaker (43:51): Anyway, I don't know

Unknown Speaker (43:52): how else

Mike (43:52): I'm trying to presumptions I make about someone wearing a tie and nothing else. Stubborn doesn't want them.

Jaymo (44:00): But, yeah, you know, I didn't really look at Pauline closely, but, like, this is the Pauline we know today. She's got the the red dress, the long, you know, brunette hair. I just think it was so ballsy to if you don't remember that Donkey Kong Junior was a newer arcade game, there's almost nothing to indicate that this is more than just a port of the NES. Like, I could see a lot of people passing this on the shelf thinking, well, I already have Donkey Kong in the NES. So today's trivia for the game all comes from the official Nintendo guidebook.

Jaymo (44:33): Donkey Kong for the Game Boy is intended to be a direct prequel to Super Mario Brothers, which is why the game's final moments has the cast standing next to the iconic question blocks and work pipe. They don't otherwise appear in the game. The game originally included a level editor that was cut because it was too confusing for young playtesters. And speaking of level design, according to developer interviews, graphics designer Kenta Usui shifted from sprite work to level design late in the latter half of the development, completing much of his work in unconventional places such as on the bus or during his bathroom breaks. And then last but not least, Shigeru Miyamoto, cognizant of the way that Donkey Kong was about to be rebranded by Rare.

Jaymo (45:17): Donkey Kong Country was already in development when they were making this game. He saw this as one last time to present the DK and Mario in their original iterations. So to that end, the guidebook includes a humorous comic in which the duo of Mario and Donkey Kong meet a group of bratty teenagers who tease them for going extinct soon, and their advice to Donkey Kong and Mario is to date more and reproduce so as to stave off their upcoming extinction, which is, like, right blaze. Weird. Right?

Unknown Speaker (45:53): I don't think today's day and age would allow something like that.

Unknown Speaker (45:56): No. No. I didn't. Surprised.

Mike (45:59): So the there was nearly Donkey Kong Maker two decades before Mario Maker.

Jaymo (46:04): Yes. And and and it's interesting. The I don't know how far you got in this game, but those mechanics of placing objects in the in the level still made it in in the form of in game puzzles even though they scrapped the level editor. But, yeah, it's just really wild, the Nintendo history, once you dive into it. So I don't have any history with this game.

Jaymo (46:26): I never touched it before this episode, but I was super hooked on it. And two hundred and seventy one minutes later, iNinTend did beat this game. Nintendo. I mean, computer. Mike, I feel like you could beat this game, but it's really long.

Jaymo (46:44): So I'm gonna guess you've been busy with work. Did you get to the end?

Mike (46:49): No. So I thought that this was just a port of the arcade game until, like, an hour before I got to it when I was going over the manual. It was like, this is a lot more game than I thought it was going to be. Yeah. I I have not properly prepared for that.

Mike (47:07): So, yeah, I did did not realize at all what this was gonna be. And so I got to something like so, yeah. So there's like a 100 levels out of eight stages? Eight or eight worlds of Yeah. Levels or something like that.

Mike (47:23): Like, four that are at level zero or a stage zero. And then I completed big city, and then after that is forest or jungle or something like that. Like, I was, like, two thirds the way through that, and then it was like, okay. I'm gonna have dinner. I was I did not allow for enough time for what this is.

Jaymo (47:42): Yeah. I'm kinda bummed that Manuel spoiled that for you because it's a really wild moment. You play through the first four levels, and granted they're shrunk down versions of the arcade game to fit on the Game Boy screen. And then Donkey Kong grabs Pauline and runs off screen, and then Mario follows him off screen to a world map a la Super Mario World or, I think, Mario three. So, yeah, it's I I I considered spoiling that for you, but I thought that'd be a fun moment for you if I didn't say anything.

Jaymo (48:08): Blaze, what's your history with the Game Boy version?

BlazeingPhoenix (48:12): I didn't even know that there was a Game Boy version of it until after my Donkey Kong achievement. When I was looking for the speedrun.com rules for Donkey Kong on NES, I just happened to see Donkey Kong Game Boy Advance. I'm like, oh, I'll have to see what that looks like later. And once I got my achievement, I went back to see the the sighted speedrun of the game. And I saw that the the time was significantly longer than what I just achieved.

BlazeingPhoenix (48:40): I'm like, why is that? And when I looked into it, I'm like, okay. It's the first four levels with Monk Donkey Kong has, like, Mario 64 movement of back flipping and hand standing and all this. And then afterwards, I saw that it just continued. I was like, oh, it's just Donkey Kong, but a lot more.

BlazeingPhoenix (48:57): And then when I looked more into it because I was curious, I saw that the commercials tried to make sure people knew, hey. This has the Donkey Kong levels, but there's a lot more to it. So it's not the same thing anymore. It sounds like most anyone who had it on the Game Boy puts it as one of their favorite, if not their favorite Game Boy games. So it's one of those that, while it might not be as known as popular Link's Awakening, it has the high positive review for anyone who's played it.

BlazeingPhoenix (49:24): Even IGN, I was curious, even though I don't necessarily take their reviews as serious, I'm just curious to what they would say. They give it a nine out of 10 stars because they greatly enjoyed it. And so I played it for the first time within the last two weeks. And I so I was already spoiled that there was more to it, but I was very, very curious to see how it functioned. In the first four levels, I felt like I was cheating because I could handstand, and then Mario can jump way higher than normal.

BlazeingPhoenix (49:50): So I was skipping through all four first levels with no problem. And then when I got to the levels I had never played before, I'm like, there's there's a lot of charm to this. As a kid, I think I definitely would have got behind this. And I'm not much of a platform a two d platform person. I tend to get bored after an hour or two of them because I'm like, this is the same thing over and over.

BlazeingPhoenix (50:09): But this game, because the levels felt so short and each level is introducing something new and new, I was like, this is this is definitely captivating and I think ahead of its time for just a Game Boy title.

Unknown Speaker (50:20): So did you beat it?

BlazeingPhoenix (50:22): I did not. I only did the first two worlds. And from what I remember, it's the four beginning levels, and then I think it's 10 levels each world for 10 worlds for a grand total of a 104 levels. So I did at roughly 24 levels total.

Jaymo (50:36): Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, you touched a bit on some of my Joy Pros, but I really love how Mario controls in this. Because like you said, you can do a backflip. So, you know, you're you're you're running in one direction, and you press the d pad in the opposite direction and jump at the same time.

Jaymo (50:56): Mario flips, but when he's flipping, he gets much more height. And I love the handstand jump because if you crouch and then jump, Mario will jump up and then land on his hands, and this has multiple functions. Now since his feet are above him, those signature strong Goomba crunching feet, he can catch projectiles with his feet. So now you have a shield, and now you have to use that in certain puzzles and enemy encounters to, like, take their projectile, catch it with your feet, and then knock it off of you, pick it up because you have the Mario two lifting mechanic. You can lift enemies and objects.

Jaymo (51:32): You know? Each level has this key that you have to carry around to get to the door. That key is also a weapon. You can beam enemies with that thing. So I was really impressed at how Mario controlled because you look at this game, and you don't think it's gonna feel like it's a modern platformer.

Mike (51:49): I was actually slightly thrown in the reverse that from coming from the first game to go to this and suddenly that, like, that momentum of Mario as you're running is back in. And it's like, suddenly, I'm running off platforms a lot. Interesting. Because I had just because I'd gotten used to not having to worry about that. And seeing that back in, it's like, oh, right.

Jaymo (52:10): But I think maybe my most favorite thing about this game is the cut scenes in between levels. Because, you know, the Donkey Kong is grabbing Pauline and running off off with her. And then between each world, you get an animated cut scene that will show you the mechanic you're going to need to use in the next level. So, like, that's where I learned that Mario can catch barrels with his feet. It shows you it shows Mario using, like, some toggleable switches.

Jaymo (52:37): There's even, like Mike alluded to earlier, Mario Maker style puzzles where you have to grab a power up that lets you place a ladder anywhere in the level. And so sometimes you have to connect two broken ladders. Sometimes you have to use the ladder so that you can toss toss your hammer up above you, climb a ladder you placed, and then catch the hammer again to break this block. It felt almost in that, like, every solution to the puzzles was simple in its nature, but can you figure it out and execute it with the right order of events to make it happen? So, Blaze, I'm you like this game.

Jaymo (53:12): Right? You said it's really charming. Are you gonna go back to it and play more?

BlazeingPhoenix (53:17): I I thought about it, and I think it would be one of those that I will like to go back from time to time just to get farther and farther. And I didn't know about the ending linking to Super Mario Brothers one, so I kinda wanna see that. But I I when I first started up the game, I allowed it to play the intro, Donkey Kong busting through the walls, but then it has right after a cut scene of Mario. And even before the game start, Mario actually does a lot of things that show mechanics. It shows him spinning on a wire looking like gymnastics to get extra height.

BlazeingPhoenix (53:49): It shows him hand standing. It shows that he can fall on his face without dying like your complaint was of the original Donkey Kong. And I think this game, you actually still can die if you fall too high, but it's, like, a significant height to it. But I do I I do really like how there's a tutorial in the game without it being the forceful tutorial that we see in almost every game today that I dislike. So the fact that there's a quick method of, hey.

BlazeingPhoenix (54:16): Here's this and play with it. And if you know it, you just mash a and you get through it real fast. And the tutorial isn't a hindrance, and it has the charm of the cutscene. And then I also I really wanna see what other boss fights you get with Donkey Kong because at the end of each world, you get to do a unique boss fight, which was very different than the original Donkey Kong. So I I as a more action player, I I I see that as the more appealing part than the platforming side.

BlazeingPhoenix (54:42): So I really wanna see the other eight boss fights that I haven't done yet.

Jaymo (54:45): Yeah. It's and it's really good for the theming and the branding is because Donkey Kong is constantly going up against Mario. Every four levels is on Donkey Kong fight. So do you not want me to show you the final one? Because it's pretty sick.

Unknown Speaker (54:58): Oh, I don't mind.

Jaymo (55:00): This game has a really epic conclusion because the final final world is just a Donkey Kong tower. Every level is a Donkey Kong boss fight culminating in a giant fight or a fight against a giant a King Kong, Donkey Kong. Let's be honest. Like, at this point, you kinda gotta admit the comparison. But it was just so much more epic and hype than I was expecting from a Game Boy game.

Unknown Speaker (55:26): And I also love Donkey Kong Junior being in this. I don't know if either of you guys did either of guys see a Donkey Kong Junior level? Did that get get introduced by level world three?

Mike (55:36): The sort of like the the ropes hanging down would be in that style the style of that one. Right?

Jaymo (55:45): Yeah. So there's levels that were inspired by Donkey Kong Junior, but the actual character Donkey Kong Junior shows up. And he's really fun because he's running around the level triggering switches and things, and sometimes it helps you, and sometimes it's a hindrance. And it's like, you know, like like, Blaze, am I right? Sometimes kids, they're wonderful, and sometimes kids are frustrating.

Jaymo (56:05): Right? Mhmm. And so it's, like, entirely up to what you're trying to accomplish. And I was like, this is good. I'm a huge fan of storytelling just through gameplay.

Jaymo (56:14): And so he really felt like this mischievous, adorable little baby. It was like, oh, thanks, Donkey Kong junior, or, like, thanks, Donkey Kong junior. Like, it really depended on what he did. And so have you delved at all into the other games in the Donkey Kong series, Blaze?

BlazeingPhoenix (56:28): I've tried a little bit of Donkey Kong Country one. I I actually wanna go back and eventually play through the series because that looks like the one of the few platformers I could actually get behind and have fun with. And it has great music, which I really like in games. I've played a little bit of Tropical Freeze. I've actually played Mario versus Donkey Kong on the DS, and I see a lot of, I guess, similarities that you see in this Donkey Kong game for the Game Boy, how you put down a block and it stretches out sideways and upwards, and I had flashbacks of, oh, you did the exact thing on Mario versus Donkey Kong with the little little wind up toys, and you gotta make the platforms for them.

BlazeingPhoenix (57:08): So now I see that that's coming full circle. I have actually played Donkey Kong Junior on my 3DS virtual console. So when I saw that the the base levels of it were in Donkey Kong Game Boy, I was like, oh, this is cool. Now we're going we have now Donkey Kong included, Donkey Kong Junior stuff included, a lot of unique stuff included. Mario's movement before Mario 64 was a thing included.

BlazeingPhoenix (57:32): And I'm like, this this is a lot for just a Game Boy game, and it's a Game Boy game that I'm surprised I haven't heard of in the twenty plus years that it's been out, almost thirty years that it's been out.

Jaymo (57:42): Yeah. It's really crazy how good this is and how much it flew under the radar. Mike, I'm gonna guess you enjoy the roulette and slot machine bonuses in between levels because you're always a fan of getting some bonus lives.

Mike (57:54): Yeah. Which is why I am not a fan of the slot machine, really. Sort of the more roulette ish one. That was one where it's like everyone I saw was generally it's at least one or two lives, occasionally three. Slot machine, you can get none, and that is very frustrating.

Unknown Speaker (58:10): Yeah.

Mike (58:11): I'm more a fan of how many levels had easily easily accessible one ups relatively early in the puzzle. So they there were ones who was like, okay. Most of the time here, I can get that and then deal with figuring out the rest for this. Because a lot of it is it's on some days, it's tough to see everything you need to see to figure out what you have to do. So working through it, it was a lot less stressful to be like, Okay, I can just grab this one up, and then I can go figure out how I have to do this.

Mike (58:44): And because of those little cut scenes between stages, it did help to be like, Okay, that's the new thing. How does that new thing let me solve this?

Jaymo (58:55): And the game has a save function. You gotta love that. Like, when I know whenever whenever you're not writing down passwords for this podcast, I feel like you gotta appreciate it. So we're we're pretty high on this game. Did anything about it frustrate you guys?

Jaymo (59:08): Do you have any Joy Cons? Because I have one, but it's very contextual.

Mike (59:12): I did not like the falls killing that happened to me. And I think I think a part of it is that I think it depends on how you're moving what happens. Because for mine, the ones that would kill me were straight down drops. And if I if I'd where I tried to avoid falling and failed in situation where I'm like, I feel like I had the moment if I had the that when I would just, like, run off, I just kinda tuck and roll, but it sort of seemed to be like a nope. For this one, if you fall straight down, it's going to kill you.

Mike (59:50): If you had momentum to the side, you kinda get through it. And that was it felt inconsistent in some capacity to me.

Unknown Speaker (59:58): The Internet said if you land on your head, you die. Yeah. I think if you're I think if you're moving, Mario is technically angled a little bit, so he'll kinda take it in the chest instead of the face.

Mike (1:00:08): Yeah. Although it's also really messed up. I think just we we had the falls that don't kill you, but then, like, he's just lying there and you see, like, his leg twitch and it just like That's so funny. This feels a little bit much. Like, you mean it's, like, too violent?

Mike (1:00:22): It it it caught me off guard that, like, this feels like this should be slightly more disturbing than I'm taking it to be.

Jaymo (1:00:29): Yeah. Like, that was a rough fall, and he's like this grown man. So this game, I don't know if you guys noticed on the box art, it was a Super Game Boy Super PAC. And what that means is that it has special functionality if you plug it into the SNES peripheral. So plugging this game into the SNES peripheral, the Super Game Boy, and then playing it on your television, it had essentially full color.

Jaymo (1:00:57): And it had this really cool border to it because, you know, they have to keep the proportions of the Game Boy. They keep they're not gonna stretch out the image and make it look all out of whack. So it makes it look like you're playing a Donkey Kong arcade cabinet. Mike, check this out. Even in the bottom left hand corner, there's that little square that shows the instructions, like, on your pinball machine that show the rules or whatever.

Jaymo (1:01:19): You know, you're the only person on the planet who actually reads those. But so with Nintendo, they have been so slavish about we're gonna give you the authentic experience. Even if that means the Virtual Boy hurts your neck, you are going to play it the way people played it. So I wish that they would add a super Game Boy option to the Game Boy app in Nintendo classics, because you can change which Game Boy you're using. You can, via this app, play on the original Game Boy, the Game Boy Pocket, or the Game Boy Color.

Jaymo (1:01:47): But interestingly, if you play this on the Game Boy Color, it does not colorize properly. Everything's essentially just a tint of red, but it looked better on the Super Game Boy. So something annoys me about not being able to play this the way it, you know, really should have been played. Is that making any sense to you guys?

Unknown Speaker (1:02:06): Yeah. Makes sense.

Jaymo (1:02:08): Okay. I don't know. I just feel like if Nintendo's gonna be so stubborn about some things, give me a Super Game Boy option. I don't know. Blaze, anything that you dislike about Donkey Kong 94?

BlazeingPhoenix (1:02:19): I think I would have to play it more from the the two worlds I did. I didn't really see too too much of a issue with it. It felt like anytime that I died, it was more my fault of, oh, that kills me or I ran into the enemy or I got stunned from falling and now this enemy walked into me. It felt more my fault and fair than something that the game did, but I I'm sure the game has something somewhere at some point that I go, why is this in the game? I just haven't got to it yet.

Jaymo (1:02:45): I I think the only moment that happened with me is that there are some puzzles where it's like an empty room, and you have all these little Mario Maker tiles. And if you don't know the precise placement and order of events, like, I it was one of those things of, well, this kinda you need a guide for this or a lot of trial and error, which I don't really have the patience for. So maybe I just need to get good. I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, I couldn't find a whole lot to complain.

Mike (1:03:10): I do think this is one where even though it gives a lot of lives, I feel like it doesn't need them. Like, I think this as a puzzle game would work better without especially because, like, you kind of can't really go back to, like, gain additional lives in the way that I would think of something like Super Mario World and be like, okay. This is a level that, like, theoretically go, okay. I know how to get a few extra lives, I can just kind of redo this and up my total number of lives. And I don't know what happens if I do run out of lives on this.

Mike (1:03:44): So much of this gameplay kind of is here's the puzzle. Keep going till you figure out how you have to solve the puzzle and do it. I think you could just entirely remove the life mechanic on this, and I think it would work perfectly fine. I don't think it's providing something in the same way that I think of lives in a lot in more platforming games mattering.

Unknown Speaker (1:04:09): Yeah. Being it as a puzzle game, it'd be kinda frustrating to run out of lives. And then, well, I already know how to solve this puzzle. And there's a 101 levels. Like, you don't need like, it's gonna take people a while to get through this game.

Jaymo (1:04:19): You don't need to, like, keep that arcade format. I just think that at this point in game development, doing away with lives and letting people try infinitely, I had I don't really think that had been a thing yet.

Mike (1:04:29): I also wonder if it just means at a certain point, because you get to the that bonus level by picking up all the items on a level, and I kind of wonder if they were kinda committed into that. And then it's like, well, now we have to have a reason for you to bother with doing that.

Jaymo (1:04:43): That's true. Yeah. Because this game you don't play this game for the score. Alright, guys. Well, I think we've covered the joy pros, the joy cons, and every bit in between.

Jaymo (1:04:53): So it's time to declare each game from today's episode as a Nintendo do or a Nintendo don't. Blaze, you can play donk you can beat Donkey Kong without even looking at it. Should people look at it?

BlazeingPhoenix (1:05:05): I'd say so, especially if you like retro games or you wanna fun high score game or just to see a a historic game. I mean, you have historic controversies around this game. You have historic success with this game for now Nintendo's mascot character, Mario, aka Jumpman from back then. But if you don't care much for high score repetitive games or just retro y eight I don't even know if it's I think it's still considered eight bit games from back then, then maybe not. But I I like retro games in histories of stuff, and I think it's still one of the better arcade games out there.

Unknown Speaker (1:05:43): So for me, it's it's it's a yes.

Jaymo (1:05:44): What can Nintendo do? Mike, where'd you land, and where'd you put it in our and standing rankings?

Mike (1:05:51): So I think for me, it doesn't have a sense of replayability. I'm no king of arcades that's gonna go redo this to chase scores or time too much, but it does feel like such a bedrock of gaming that I think it has to be a Nintendo at least once through, which is doable. And so I ended up putting it at 66, which puts it right below Echo the Dolphin, right above Solomon's Key.

Jaymo (1:06:25): Yeah. And I I can see those games kinda going together. Like, they're all kind of puzzly sort of situations. I I agree with you. I think it it feel really weird to tell someone, don't play Donkey Kong because you can see everything this game has to offer in just, you know, a lunch break.

Jaymo (1:06:42): Like and as Blaise said, it's so historically important, like and it changed video games. So you you got time. You know? Do it. Try Donkey Kong.

Jaymo (1:06:52): I also didn't put it very high, though, because I do think the shine kinda wears off, like, quickly. So I ended up putting it seventy second, little lower than you, between Super Mario Kart and Doctor Mario on the NES. I think Doctor Mario is in a simpler game, and I kinda lose interest for similar reasons. So let's take a look at our and standings, which is not Mike, not J Mo, but the and in between. Our mathematical average puts Donkey Kong on the NES at seventy fourth place between Mappy Land and Telluroboxer.

Mike (1:07:28): Tie tied with Telluroboxer. Tied with Telluroboxer. It is behind a three way tie of doctor Mario on Game Boy, Kirby's Dream Land three in Mappy Land, and just ahead of Star Fox.

Jaymo (1:07:40): There we go. That's a lot that's that's that middle of the pack that you always mention a lot of ties in there. That's how that's how math works. Okay. And Blaze, your verdict on Donkey Kong for the Game Boy, Nintendo?

Unknown Speaker (1:07:51): I'd say so. It had a lot more to it than I thought it would, so I'd say Nintendo.

Jaymo (1:07:56): Awesome. Mike, if you're Nen two on Nintendo on Donkey Kong NES, I'm gonna guess you're also for the Game Boy?

Mike (1:08:03): Yeah. This one's a much, much more solid Nintendo. This is one that I could I had the time, especially because it's so easy to do it in sort of bite sized parts sometimes, I can easily see myself coming back to it if I had the time. So I had it on my ranking at thirtieth, which puts it right right above Kirby's Dream Land and right below Super Mario Kart.

Jaymo (1:08:29): Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think that this game, as Blaise said, it's wild. I didn't know it existed until recently, and I I adore this game.

Jaymo (1:08:39): I think it is probably my new favorite Game Boy game. I put it in my top 20. I put it at sixteenth right below Zombies Ate My Neighbors and right above Super Mario World, which feels sacrilegious. That game is so good, but I just liked how Mario controlled more in this game. I really it felt like a two d version of Super Mario 64, and that is an insane statement to me.

Jaymo (1:09:05): Controlled in the sense of, like, all the, like, additional movement options? Yeah. The back flips and the the the handstands and the ability to pick up objects. Like, it felt like modern Mario back before I knew that existed. So with our and standing rankings for Donkey Kong on the Game Boy, that puts it again in the top 20.

Jaymo (1:09:29): So right below Gunstar Heroes and right above Zombies Ate My Neighbors at 19. I I I don't hate that. Guys, we're gonna call that game over for today. Blaise, thank you so much for taking time out of your dad life to be with us this morning. Before you get on out of here, why don't you remind our listeners where they can check out your always impressive speedruns and if there's any future speedruns you're working on currently that they can look forward to.

BlazeingPhoenix (1:09:53): Yes. Thank you for having me. I typically stream live on Twitch and YouTube at the same time, but I keep most of my highlights and saved videos and all that on my YouTube side of things more focused on that. YouTube and twitch.com/blazingphoenix, blazeingphoenix. I do add the e there intentionally.

BlazeingPhoenix (1:10:14): I know it's technically an inaccurate spelling, but it's so I can get a consistent username. I am currently on a little bit of a break due to life being busy, but when I get back to streaming again, I want to finish Nintendo World Championships off with a 100 levels run blindfolded. Cool. And then afterwards, I wanted to get my toes into Celeste chapter one to chapter two blindfolded. And also finish, like I said, finish Kingdom Hearts blindfolded, and then maybe continue dipping my toes in other smaller titles that I I I have in mind.

BlazeingPhoenix (1:10:50): But the main ones is Nintendo World Championships, Kingdom Hearts, and then smaller games here and there blindfolded.

Mike (1:10:57): And since you bring up the streaming, since I was streaming this, I actually had someone come in when I was playing Donkey Kong 94 and actually, like, explained to me how to use the headstand jumps to get extra height, which I hadn't properly realized.

Unknown Speaker (1:11:13): It was

Unknown Speaker (1:11:13): the neat bit of just some coming back, hey, try this. And it was like, oh, this is super helpful. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker (1:11:21): Yeah. I saw that in the saw that in the little intro. Like I said, when I let the intro play, it showed Mario Hansen and showed the extra height. So but that's where livestreaming can help is if you're playing something for the first time or even blindfolded stuff. Sometimes I'll be blindfolded and something messes up.

BlazeingPhoenix (1:11:37): I'm like, where did I go wrong before I spend thirty seconds going back through YouTube to find it? Someone's like, oh, you pressed that too early, pressed that too late. I'm like, oh, thank you. That saved me a little bit of time. And I would like to give a big shout out to the blindfolded speedrunning community for doing a very niche thing that not a lot of people do or even know that exists.

BlazeingPhoenix (1:11:58): So if you would like to check out a ton more blindfolded speedruns, especially from runners who are far more better at games blindfolded than I am, then you can go to blindfoldedgaming.com. That's where you could see all the games, the runners, and the times that they've put into it. Some are segmented. Most of them are full games and individual levels, and you can find runners like Buggia doing Super Mario 64. You can find Sybil and Malak Beale doing Celeste and many, many, many other titles.

BlazeingPhoenix (1:12:28): That's where I found Kingdom Hearts was doable, and that's where I got more inspiration for other games. And even there's even a a runner who I've mentioned, Sybil, who did World One of Donkey Kong 94 blindfolded, and I believe he has intentions of doing the entire game blindfolded in the future.

Jaymo (1:12:45): Amazing. Just amazing. So if you wanna watch, Blaze's insanely impressive blindfolded speedruns, we'll put the link to his, Twitch in the show notes. And, also, if you wanna find, Mike's Twitch and help him navigate old games, don't forget to visit www.theoldswitcharue.com. We'll have the links all there.

Jaymo (1:13:04): Next time, we're gonna be rotating our way through another all time classic, the Tetris series on Nintendo classics. And on our website, you can find links to our Spotify or Discord, YouTube, TikTok, and all the social medias you can shake a joystick at. Big thanks to Crystal Fields for our incredible intro song. And please, dear listener, do not forget to like and subscribe. Every click means a lot, and you mean a lot to us.

Jaymo (1:13:27): Until next time, this has been the old switcheroo where we've been talking gaming retro with Mike and J Mo.

Unknown Speaker (1:13:32): I have been Mike.

Unknown Speaker (1:13:33): And I've been J Mo. Game on, everyone.